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Thread: Costs associated with manufacturing fault

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    Default Costs associated with manufacturing fault

    Hi Everyone

    I have Electric Chamberlain door openers set up with myQ for automation at my place in my new shed that was built a few months back.
    They where installed professionally by the builder and the myQ sensors installed by a local garage door company. they noted when installing them that the terminal block on the one unit was malformed and defective. they put it in as best they could but mentioned that it may have to be replaced under warranty.

    The cost for removal is $400 and re installation is a further $400 after it has been exchanged.

    I was reading under the consumer law on ACCC site, it seems to mention that installed items it is the business responsibility to organize the collection and or repair of the item and that i am entitled to be reimbursed any cost of returning the item.

    Additionally Bunnings should not have directed me to the manufacturer as they did it is apparently their responsibility to resolve this issue.

    How should i navigate this situation? they seem to have set up the hoops to make it so it is more costly to do a RMA than it is to just buy a new unit and get it installed.

    I mean it is literally cheaper for me to buy another motor and just get it fitted than it is to get the garage door company out twice.

    Regards



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    Talk to a small claims lawyer ~ you can't (and don't want to) cite detail in open forum. It's not so simple because any contractual obligations between yourself, the builder, and the local garage door company, may be beyond bunning's obligations ...ie; that is to say, if you uninstalled the motor unit and took it back to bunnings with valid sales receipts etc etc explaining it's dead and you want a replacement, they'd probably do RMA ~ the cost of uninstalling/reinstalling the unit, may be on you....but I'm no lawyer =)

    Find yourself a good general purpose lawyer/firm that specialize in small claims (there's many out there). Often, they don't have to 'do' anything... and even though they might understand your consumer rights as well as you do, end of the day it's the difference between you (the customer) badgering with the merchant to honour return, and the merchant's office getting an email/letter with a law firm heading spelling out what ACCC guidelines and policies apply....and of course, all correspondences must be recorded in emails/letters, because anything else is about as useless as an odorless fart in a lift...so to speak 8)

    Note I didn't say anything about it being cheap, you still might be talking about a one or two hundred dollar letter's worth of 'legal representation'....it sounds like a lot, but it's pretty good value if you ask me, because the effective equivalent is doing it all yourself, and jumping through all 'the hoops' as you put it, to claim/ensure your consumer rights. What you're paying for, is the letterhead, and the mind of your wig who knows about all the ropes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by wotnot View Post
    Talk to a small claims lawyer ~ you can't (and don't want to) cite detail in open forum. It's not so simple because any contractual obligations between yourself, the builder, and the local garage door company, may be beyond bunning's obligations ...ie; that is to say, if you uninstalled the motor unit and took it back to bunnings with valid sales receipts etc etc explaining it's dead and you want a replacement, they'd probably do RMA ~ the cost of uninstalling/reinstalling the unit, may be on you....but I'm no lawyer =)

    Find yourself a good general purpose lawyer/firm that specialize in small claims (there's many out there). Often, they don't have to 'do' anything... and even though they might understand your consumer rights as well as you do, end of the day it's the difference between you (the customer) badgering with the merchant to honour return, and the merchant's office getting an email/letter with a law firm heading spelling out what ACCC guidelines and policies apply....and of course, all correspondences must be recorded in emails/letters, because anything else is about as useless as an odorless fart in a lift...so to speak 8)

    Note I didn't say anything about it being cheap, you still might be talking about a one or two hundred dollar letter's worth of 'legal representation'....it sounds like a lot, but it's pretty good value if you ask me, because the effective equivalent is doing it all yourself, and jumping through all 'the hoops' as you put it, to claim/ensure your consumer rights. What you're paying for, is the letterhead, and the mind of your wig who knows about all the ropes.
    Ok, however the last time i spoke to a lawyer regarding this sort of thing the cost of engagement was around $300 and in this case that is getting close to the cost of just paying for another one and disregard the warranty.

    on the ACCC website it actually covers this sort of item being an installed appliance.

    <quote>

    Responsibility for returning products

    Consumers are responsible for returning products that can be posted or easily returned.

    Businesses are responsible for paying for the shipping costs or collecting faulty products that are large, heavy or hard to remove, such as:

    widescreen televisions
    beds
    installed appliances, like stoves or dishwashers
    extension ladders stuck in an extended position.

    This must be done within a reasonable time.

    <quote/>

    the builder and garage door company will only warrant and only have to warrant their workmanship so if there is a fault with their installation. in this instance it is a fault with the unit itself the molded terminal block on the PCB of the unit was malformed and missing its lugs, this clearly is a fault with the product.

    additionally given that the garage / shed now really can no longer be secured should i need to get my car out i really don't have time to play the game of lets go to court and take legal action against the supplier / manufacturer who are not fulfilling their obligation clearly stipulated under consumer law.

    I also really shouldn't have to.

    think about for example if we where talking about a stove. generally you purchase the desired stove and get an installer to install it. The installer is not responsible for any fault that stove has under warranty for example if their was an internal component failure or a missing component that resulted in the unit becoming inoperative. that responsibility falls to the business that sells you the item. it further goes on to say that the business is not to direct you to the manufacturer.

    In this case that is exactly what Bunnings has done. and despite my attempts to contact the manufacturer when the issue was originally picked up and now when it has become a hard fault resulting in the door not closing at all in any circumstance i have still been directed to the manufacturer. last time I spoke to Bunnings well before Christmas about this they took my details and said they would chase it up with the manufacturer. when i mentioned this to them they said they had no knowledge of this interaction at all. so it was clear that the "Manager" i spoke to regarding this before was just fobbing me off.

    in any case. the original cost of installation by the builder was $200 for this unit then $400 for the garage company to come out and finish the installation properly. now it will cost $400 to remove it to send back then another $400 to put the replaced/repaired unit back in. so that means at the end of the day this unit will have lost me $1400 not even including the cost of the opener itself.

    Think of it this way. imagine you bought a new car. you drive it for a couple of months and then it stops you take it to a qualified mechanic and they say that lets say the thermostat has bound up due to manufacturing defect, the full cost of the repair is covered by the manufacturer not just the part that broke. the cost of the part and the labor the mechanic has to put into it is covered by the warranty of the vehicle. this is for exactly that reason.

    additionally this is within the initial mandatory 12 month warranty. what it looks like businesses and manufacturers are doing is making it so it is uneconomical for a customer to claim the warranty.

    for the example of this case if i have to have it removed it will literally be cheaper to buy another unit and supply it to the garage door company to swap it out at my expense than to claim it under warranty and have the installers out twice. in this case it would mean that the warranty is functionally worthless.

    as far as i am concerned if warranties are going to be functionally worthless they may as well not provide them so they should put a notice on the purchased item saying disclaimer this device doesn't come with a warranty once installed because it will cost YOU more than the device to fulfill it so warranty void if installed.

    They already disclaim that the warranty is void if it is installed with the existing locking mechanism of the roller door is intact. that is why there is a sense of urgency to this. i can't just unlock the motor using the pull chain and lock the door with the key because no holes are drilled in the rails for the door lock due to this clause in the warranty. therefor as a direct result of their disclaimer i am now worse off due to their manufacturing defect.

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    It should not have been installed in the first place, as soon as the defect was discovered it should have been returned under warranty.

    Your cheapest option may be to purchase a new unit and have it installed and then return the faulty unit for repair under warranty. You could keep the repaired unit as a spare or sell it off to recover some of your costs.
    Don't worry, it only seems kinky the first time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rocket View Post
    It should not have been installed in the first place, as soon as the defect was discovered it should have been returned under warranty.

    Your cheapest option may be to purchase a new unit and have it installed and then return the faulty unit for repair under warranty. You could keep the repaired unit as a spare or sell it off to recover some of your costs.
    If i am going to do that then rather than get an installer out to remove the unit at my expense for RMA i will count the Warranty as voided and crack it open in place remove the circuit board. de solder the terminal block and put a length of wire soldered through the board with a new terminal block at the end then reinstall, as i said the cost of removal exceeds the cost of the unit. if i send it back for repair and get it back the warranty will be eaten up sitting on the shelf. if i sell it off then the warranty will be used. it also wont cover my out of pocket expense.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rocket View Post
    It should not have been installed in the first place, as soon as the defect was discovered it should have been returned under warranty.

    Your cheapest option may be to purchase a new unit and have it installed and then return the faulty unit for repair under warranty. You could keep the repaired unit as a spare or sell it off to recover some of your costs.
    ...yep...

    QUOTE]installed by a local garage door company. they noted when installing them that the terminal block on the one unit was malformed and defective. they put it in as best they could but mentioned that it may have to be replaced under warranty.[/QUOTE]

    That'll be the crux element ; a known defective device was installed ~ the way I interpret this, Bunnings would expect, that a professional installer would identify a defective/faulty unit at time of installation (as is what happened apparently), and should return it to them for RMA. At that point in time, warranty replacement was at it's most easy moment to facilitate, as then unit had not been installed...and the question of costs regarding removal/refitting of the (known) faulty unit, would not be drawn. In a way, installing a known faulty unit which subsequently fails, is in itself 'setting bunnings up' to take the fall for removal/refitting costs when the unit fails ...in the 'real world'...the responsible installer goes "I can't fit that, it's clearly buggered, and when it fails it makes me look bad ; get a replacement and I can continue the installation" ...that would've been 'full diligence' on the installer's part.

    It would be, that whom-so-ever decided, decreed or took the initiative to have installed the known faulty unit, is ultimately to blame here .... buying another and keep one for spares is the 'sanest' resolve =)

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    Quote Originally Posted by wotnot View Post
    ...yep...

    QUOTE]installed by a local garage door company. they noted when installing them that the terminal block on the one unit was malformed and defective. they put it in as best they could but mentioned that it may have to be replaced under warranty.
    That'll be the crux element ; a known defective device was installed ~ the way I interpret this, Bunnings would expect, that a professional installer would identify a defective/faulty unit at time of installation (as is what happened apparently), and should return it to them for RMA. At that point in time, warranty replacement was at it's most easy moment to facilitate, as then unit had not been installed...and the question of costs regarding removal/refitting of the (known) faulty unit, would not be drawn. In a way, installing a known faulty unit which subsequently fails, is in itself 'setting bunnings up' to take the fall for removal/refitting costs when the unit fails ...in the 'real world'...the responsible installer goes "I can't fit that, it's clearly buggered, and when it fails it makes me look bad ; get a replacement and I can continue the installation" ...that would've been 'full diligence' on the installer's part.

    It would be, that whom-so-ever decided, decreed or took the initiative to have installed the known faulty unit, is ultimately to blame here .... buying another and keep one for spares is the 'sanest' resolve =)[/QUOTE]

    Thats a very simplistic way of looking at this issue mate.

    For a start there are multiple hands involved here. The sensors where installed after the motor was installed. if you actually read my post above you would have seen that the builder did the original installation then the garage door company came out to install the sensors he refused to install upon opening the cover to reveal the terminal block they identified the fault with the unit.

    The option at the time was 1. they remove the unit for RMA at a total cost of $400 in addition to what they had already charged me for the job. then they can reinstall it when the new one arrives.

    when that $400 is charged is completely irrelevant as the fault was discovered after the initial installation of the motor.

    yes it could be argued that the builder should have installed the sensors however that builder wont even respond to emails now so there is no chance he is going to come to the table on this. furthermore his view is "installing the sensors is not part of a standard installation"

    as for most logical solution you have to understand if i have no other choice but to pay for a replacement unit then rather than replacing it makes more sense to me to just remove PCB from the installed motor then on the workbench solder a connection directly to the PCB and chuck a terminal block on the wires that i connect. this would get this unit back in operational order.

    having a repaired additional motor sitting there burning through the warranty without use makes no logical sense to me because it could suffer another fault as soon as it is installed and by then it would be out of warranty.

    eyeballing the terminal block myself i can see what they are saying there supposed to be 3 tabs. the center tab is missing so it can't be locked down.

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    The crux of the matter is. Who supplied the faulty part ?

    The person who purchased and supplied the faulty part is ultimately responsible.
    If you bought the item yourself, then employed someone else to install it, you are up for their costs to replace.
    That said, the moment they noticed the defect they should not have installed it and waited for a replacement.

    If this was all organised by the Builder, and you were not involved, it is his problem.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Reschs View Post
    The crux of the matter is. Who supplied the faulty part ?

    The person who purchased and supplied the faulty part is ultimately responsible.
    If you bought the item yourself, then employed someone else to install it, you are up for their costs to replace.
    That said, the moment they noticed the defect they should not have installed it and waited for a replacement.

    If this was all organised by the Builder, and you were not involved, it is his problem.
    I've highlighted the main point. WHO organised the install of the faulty component? If they told you it was faulty and you said install it anyway, then it is on you. OTOH if the found it faulty and installed it anyway, then the onus is on the installer and whoever engaged him to rectify it.
    I'm out of my mind, but feel free to leave a message...

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    Quote Originally Posted by lsemmens View Post
    I've highlighted the main point. WHO organised the install of the faulty component? If they told you it was faulty and you said install it anyway, then it is on you. OTOH if the found it faulty and installed it anyway, then the onus is on the installer and whoever engaged him to rectify it.
    ok so i have answered this now multiple times in the thread.

    The builder installed it originally. He left the sensors off stating that it is not "part of a standard installation" I told him that they needed to be installed as the myQ functionality of the motor does not work without it. he said i have to get someone else to do that he won't fix it. The motors where supposed to be part of the build, however due to him deliberately writing that part of the contract vague he was not going to install it resulting in me having to pay him more money to install door motors. He asked me to supply the motors from bunnings and he told me what ones where needed.

    After this I had to engage a Garage door company to fix the incomplete installation. it was at this point the motor that had been already mounted and attached to the door and operating in with the remotes only was found to have a faulty terminal block as the terminal block is behind a plastic clip on plate when not in use. they said they could remove the motor for me at the time saying it would be about $400 worth of work. I told them I will chase the RMA process first as removing the motor will make the door unable to be secured. they attached the sensors the best they could. I immediately at that point contacted Bunnings and explained the situation to them. they took my details and said they will chase it up with the manufacturer. that was end of November This week the connection has failed resulting in the door not being able to close even with the remote. I then chased Bunnings up again, they directed me to the manufacturer.

    so no the original builder (who is ignoring correspondence now altogether) didn't notice the fault as he didn't complete that part of the installation. it was the garage door company that detected the issue.

    now if it was the builder that was responsible even if he did the work he would recover the costs for his time from the manufacturer same with the Garrage door company. so why should i not be entitled for the same level of compensation for their failure.

    I guess the issue for me is the economics.

    If i pay for the unit to be removed sent back and reinstalled. that's $400 + $400
    If i buy another one and get it swapped over then send back the faulty one that's $340 + $400 and i get a spare motor sitting on the shelf wasting warranty

    If i say @#$@ the warranty remove the board from the unit and solder some wires in place then attach a terminal block to the wire then buy a spare motor to put on the shelf it costs $5 + $340 and i end up with the same result as the second option
    If i say @#$@ the warranty remove the board from the unit and solder some wires in place then attach a terminal block to the wire then just leave it at that it costs me $5 to fix this issue.

    so it is fairly clear why they set the warranty up this way. its to discourage people from using it.
    now the manufacturer has said they have technicians who can come and fix these sorts of issues however that is only available if you use Bunnings preferred installer. I asked Bunnings about this and they said thats rubbish.

    even if it was replaced under warranty after i have paid for a replacement. If i sell it to recover some of the costs, i will still come up way short.
    and when it comes down to it why should i be out of pocket financially as a result of a failure with a component that i am not responsible for manufacturing.

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    The manufacturer came out and repaired the issue however he showed me that the installation was not done correctly by the garage door company. and they actually broke the terminal block it wasnt malformed like they said. so i sent an email to the garage door company and they are yet to reply even after a week. the manufacturer also noted they have had a lot of call outs in the area due to that installer not performing proper installations.

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