Insane Sub 'Deal'

[enf]

Sadly, it won't matter how many missiles, subs, row boats or rainbows we have. If we decide to withdraw from the various treaties we now have and "go it alone" without the support from our allies, we'll become another Ukraine. Russia has invaded Ukraine because of their independence. The surrounding countries have the support of the NATO alliance and Russia has be careful to avoid that. The downing of the US drone over the Black sea could well be Putin testing the willingness to act on behalf of the US and its allies. If he thinks he can get away with that, then he might well try other "minor" infractions. Sadly, we have neither the population, nor the capability of defending the vase emptiness that is the majority of Australia.

Israel seems to manage fairly well with 10,000,000 odd people. Yes, it's smaller of course, but committment can take you a fair way. We're just too slack and consumed with bullsh!t, and as such we have absolutely NO chance without allies.

Whether they are reliable or not is another question, but the choices are slim aren't they.

[lsemmens]

3.3 people/ sq/km vs 400/ sq/km i.e. population density of Australia vs Israel, I would not like my odds of winning a battle with those odds, Even the Ukraine has a population density of 75/ sq/km. We NEED allies.

[enf]

3.3 people/ sq/km vs 400/ sq/km i.e. population density of Australia vs Israel, I would not like my odds of winning a battle with those odds, Even the Ukraine has a population density of 75/ sq/km. We NEED allies.

Jeez...it's not just a mathematical problem. FFS. That's not the gist of what I was saying.

The point is that the nation has to decide if it even WANTS to fight or just throw in the towel. We can just continue on our merry way contemplating our navels and reap the consequences or not....it seems that you are in that category.

Do we think our chosen allies are reliable? Seems plenty of people on this board don't trust the US. I don't either, but what other realistic option is there?

Don't forget any allies have a right to ask the same questions we do. Do they think that WE are reliable. If we are defeatist from the beginning and don't do anything to prepare, then that answer would be no.

[lsemmens]

I know it;s not the gist of what you are saying, but these are the consequences of going it alone. I'm not saying that we just stick our heads in the sand at all. We must be prepared as best we can. However, given our population c/w the size of our country, we are going to need an ally or two to protect ourselves. I'm also quite willing to propose that all youth should spend a minimum of 3 years in national service before being allowed to apply for the dole. That is, unless they already have a job and have been working consistently for at least years. Then, and only then should unemployment be available. If push came to shove I'd happily volunteer to fight. They won't take me (too old) but that won't prevent me from trying.

[enf]

I've said we need allies. The US is the major one, there are no others with the military assets to really help. The UK would need time as would anyone else.

Many people on this forum don't want the US. They don't trust the US to fulfill it's committments. What I am saying is there isn't an option. Both major allies (US & UK) are probably going to change governments pretty soon and THAT could spell difficulties too. Trump is a loose canon, and the British labor party are an unknown in their current form.

We HAVE to show them that we are willing to commit too, otherwise they won't help. My fear is it's too little too late if the sh!t hits the fan. You can't just whip up an army, it doesn't work like that in the real world. As a society, we don't live in a real world, but a virtual one of facebook, tiktok and twitter and can't seem to extract ourselves from it. Our leaders increasingly lie outright to us and we seem to accept it like sheep, so it doesn't bode well.

Xi Jinping doesn't have to do as much, he has massive standing forces at his command.

AS for all your national service ideas, thats a diffrent story. Even if we raise a Volksstrum, I too am too old and too sore.

[Johnno]

I believe If the shit hits the fan, it will happen in the south China sea, Australia will be called up with Its 8 subs & 220 missiles. lol.
China does have a huge naval fleet mainly small / medium vessels, very little in the way of moving solders and transporting equipment across vast oceans like the US can. Australia is safe for now.
The US should be in a recession, but keeping the world scared is making them trillions of $$$ in arms sales.

I too am old, but I reckon I could fly a F-35 or the F-22 Raptor and bomb New Zealand. lol, Or I could fly a drone straight up Xi Jinping ass.

[Reschs]

The intel is there.
Libs got rid of the French because they were never going to deliver. It was never a good deal anyway.
Brokered a multifaceted deal that meant we get loan vessels soon.
When Labor starts spending money on Defence, against their mantra, you know something big is in the pipeline.
Labor were totally against these deals before getting to government and have not only embraced them but expanded them.

[enf]

The ALP have been forced to recognise that the threat is real. Many other countries have realised this as well.

This isn't a rational country we are dealing with, it's a dictatorship that has no care whatsoever for it's own population. The people are the ultimate expression of useful idiots. Why it is still called communist amazes me....theres NOTHING communist about China. The leadership has no need to explain themselves to anyone.

Australias resident apologist for China, Paul Keating, rants on and on that they are not a threat. How he rationalises continued aggressive incursions into the territory of south pacific nations is beyond me. He has no comment on Xi's open support for Putin.

I have no love for the US, they burned their WWII points years ago. But I see no other rational choice...

[Uncle Fester]

Just to get back to alliances and what Lsemmens said and Israel:
If it were not for the alliances with the USA we wouldn't even be a target.
China sees us as a threat to them because of AUSKUS, hence their need to expand their military power.

If we had my suggested 10,000+ land based long range missiles, the majority up north with antiIBCMs also strategically placed near large cities and protecting Pine Gap, we would be a fortress that nobody would dare to access. Don't forget we are an island with a huge moat. Israel does not have that benefit.

However our new subs are weapons designed to attack targets in South China Sea(or even mainland China) and that his how China rightfully sees it because that is also how our allies expects us to use them. We will always be fighting other people's wars just like in the past.

We have become a massive target and the subs will do shyte to protect us and our 'alliance' only goes so far as the USA sees fit for their purposes.

[lsemmens]

If we did not have said alliances we'd be speaking mandarin by now. It has nothing to do with our alliances (yes, they do count) but more to do with the land available and resources that potential invaders might gain if we did not have said alliances. Look at the shitfight over Hong Kong since 1997. I'm thankful that we have British and American alliances.

[fromaron]

Look at the shitfight over Hong Kong since 1997. I'm thankful that we have British and American alliances.

Can you elaborate on what does Hong Kong has to do to the Sub Deal or Australia being China target?

[freakee1]

And your solution?

deploy another 2.5K Marines in Darwin







f

[Uncle Fester]

If we did not have said alliances we'd be speaking mandarin by now. It has nothing to do with our alliances (yes, they do count) but more to do with the land available and resources that potential invaders might gain if we did not have said alliances. Look at the shitfight over Hong Kong since 1997. I'm thankful that we have British and American alliances.

Can you provide evidence for that conclusion or did you get that because ScoMo and Dutton told you?

We are not Chinese territory nor do we share borders with them that could be disputed and I do not see China invading and taking over foreign countries.

Thanks to the alliances the only reason they will invade Australia is when the USA starts a war with them and then we are stuffed. The attack subs will do nothing to DEFEND our country and likely an easy target in our shallow waters, seen by their spy satellites.

[enf]

Can you provide evidence for that conclusion or did you get that because ScoMo and Dutton told you?

Ummm...the deal was signed off on by Albanese and Marles...THEY at least see the reality here....

We are not Chinese territory nor do we share borders with them that could be disputed and I do not see China invading and taking over foreign countries.

Thanks to the alliances the only reason they will invade Australia is when the USA starts a war with them and then we are stuffed. The attack subs will do nothing to DEFEND our country and likely an easy target in our shallow waters, seen by their spy satellites.

Can you provide evidence for that conclusion or did you get that because you hate the US and the CCP and left wing apologists like Keating told you?

[Uncle Fester]

Can you provide evidence for that conclusion or did you get that because you hate the US and the CCP and left wing apologists like Keating told you?

No clue what you are waffling on about there.
All I heard is that Keating said this was the the worst defence deal Australia ever made and that AFTER I started this thread.

I don't hate the US.
What is wrong with you?
Where have I posted that?
I said I don't trust them, that is a big difference.

Anyhow if it makes you (and lsemmens) sleep better, now that we have AUSKUS and one day in the distant future our own nuclear submarines then good for you.

I will sleep worse, knowing we will never be independent and neutral and have the equipment to actually DEFEND our country from invasion.

[Al Bundy]

That is all these Americans are allowing us to have in this AUSKUS deal?
…That is the stuff this AUSKUS should be about, including creating jobs.

China sees us as a threat to them because of AUSKUS, hence their need to expand their military power….

Anyhow if it makes you (and lsemmens) sleep better, now that we have AUSKUS and one day in the distant future our own nuclear submarines then good for you….

Just a little tip Uncle Fester, not that I think for a moment you would listen as you are too full of yourself in every way, but if you want people to give any credence to what you are attempting to convey, maybe accomplish a simple thing like getting the acronym right first, and then maybe go from there.

Its AUKUS Not AUSKUS, you dilettante.

Oh that’s right, you won’t read this as you have blocked me…

[enf]

No clue what you are waffling on about there.
All I heard is that Keating said this was the the worst defence deal Australia ever made and that AFTER I started this thread.

I don't hate the US.
What is wrong with you?
Where have I posted that?
I said I don't trust them, that is a big difference.

Anyhow if it makes you (and lsemmens) sleep better, now that we have AUSKUS and one day in the distant future our own nuclear submarines then good for you.

I will sleep worse, knowing we will never be independent and neutral and have the equipment to actually DEFEND our country from invasion.

You demand that lsemmens provide evidence for his conclusions but provide NONE for your own....namely that China would have no hostile intentions towards Australia.

I dunno fester, you remind me of the fuhrer pushing around imaginary armies on a map.... you want to be "secure and independent" behind a screen of thousands of non-existant mythical missiles, and fanciful "anti ICBMS" whatever they are in reality...

As for AUKUS, I don't fully trust the US either....but again, we have no real choice....most rational people see this. We will never be totally independent.

And yes, I'll concede that you have never actually said that you hate the US, you just sound like you do. To me anyway. Unlike you, I could be wrong...

[lsemmens]

There is NO evidence for any of our allegations here, mine included.

[fromaron]

Typical cold war at full swing - only allegations without evidence.
Strongest economy wins.

[Uncle Fester]

Typical cold war at full swing - only allegations without evidence.
Strongest economy wins.

That is certainly true for BOTH sides and my point I was trying to make, thank you.
There is no evidence China is going to attack us or the USA without us meddling in their affairs.

There is however plenty of evidence for our 'meddling' and that is very worrying.