Insane Sub 'Deal'

[enf]

Sadly, it won't matter how many missiles, subs, row boats or rainbows we have. If we decide to withdraw from the various treaties we now have and "go it alone" without the support from our allies, we'll become another Ukraine. Russia has invaded Ukraine because of their independence. The surrounding countries have the support of the NATO alliance and Russia has be careful to avoid that. The downing of the US drone over the Black sea could well be Putin testing the willingness to act on behalf of the US and its allies. If he thinks he can get away with that, then he might well try other "minor" infractions. Sadly, we have neither the population, nor the capability of defending the vase emptiness that is the majority of Australia.

Israel seems to manage fairly well with 10,000,000 odd people. Yes, it's smaller of course, but committment can take you a fair way. We're just too slack and consumed with bullsh!t, and as such we have absolutely NO chance without allies.

Whether they are reliable or not is another question, but the choices are slim aren't they.

[lsemmens]

3.3 people/ sq/km vs 400/ sq/km i.e. population density of Australia vs Israel, I would not like my odds of winning a battle with those odds, Even the Ukraine has a population density of 75/ sq/km. We NEED allies.

[enf]

3.3 people/ sq/km vs 400/ sq/km i.e. population density of Australia vs Israel, I would not like my odds of winning a battle with those odds, Even the Ukraine has a population density of 75/ sq/km. We NEED allies.

Jeez...it's not just a mathematical problem. FFS. That's not the gist of what I was saying.

The point is that the nation has to decide if it even WANTS to fight or just throw in the towel. We can just continue on our merry way contemplating our navels and reap the consequences or not....it seems that you are in that category.

Do we think our chosen allies are reliable? Seems plenty of people on this board don't trust the US. I don't either, but what other realistic option is there?

Don't forget any allies have a right to ask the same questions we do. Do they think that WE are reliable. If we are defeatist from the beginning and don't do anything to prepare, then that answer would be no.

[lsemmens]

I know it;s not the gist of what you are saying, but these are the consequences of going it alone. I'm not saying that we just stick our heads in the sand at all. We must be prepared as best we can. However, given our population c/w the size of our country, we are going to need an ally or two to protect ourselves. I'm also quite willing to propose that all youth should spend a minimum of 3 years in national service before being allowed to apply for the dole. That is, unless they already have a job and have been working consistently for at least years. Then, and only then should unemployment be available. If push came to shove I'd happily volunteer to fight. They won't take me (too old) but that won't prevent me from trying.

[enf]

I've said we need allies. The US is the major one, there are no others with the military assets to really help. The UK would need time as would anyone else.

Many people on this forum don't want the US. They don't trust the US to fulfill it's committments. What I am saying is there isn't an option. Both major allies (US & UK) are probably going to change governments pretty soon and THAT could spell difficulties too. Trump is a loose canon, and the British labor party are an unknown in their current form.

We HAVE to show them that we are willing to commit too, otherwise they won't help. My fear is it's too little too late if the sh!t hits the fan. You can't just whip up an army, it doesn't work like that in the real world. As a society, we don't live in a real world, but a virtual one of facebook, tiktok and twitter and can't seem to extract ourselves from it. Our leaders increasingly lie outright to us and we seem to accept it like sheep, so it doesn't bode well.

Xi Jinping doesn't have to do as much, he has massive standing forces at his command.

AS for all your national service ideas, thats a diffrent story. Even if we raise a Volksstrum, I too am too old and too sore.

[Johnno]

I believe If the shit hits the fan, it will happen in the south China sea, Australia will be called up with Its 8 subs & 220 missiles. lol.
China does have a huge naval fleet mainly small / medium vessels, very little in the way of moving solders and transporting equipment across vast oceans like the US can. Australia is safe for now.
The US should be in a recession, but keeping the world scared is making them trillions of $$$ in arms sales.

I too am old, but I reckon I could fly a F-35 or the F-22 Raptor and bomb New Zealand. lol, Or I could fly a drone straight up Xi Jinping ass.

[Reschs]

The intel is there.
Libs got rid of the French because they were never going to deliver. It was never a good deal anyway.
Brokered a multifaceted deal that meant we get loan vessels soon.
When Labor starts spending money on Defence, against their mantra, you know something big is in the pipeline.
Labor were totally against these deals before getting to government and have not only embraced them but expanded them.

[enf]

The ALP have been forced to recognise that the threat is real. Many other countries have realised this as well.

This isn't a rational country we are dealing with, it's a dictatorship that has no care whatsoever for it's own population. The people are the ultimate expression of useful idiots. Why it is still called communist amazes me....theres NOTHING communist about China. The leadership has no need to explain themselves to anyone.

Australias resident apologist for China, Paul Keating, rants on and on that they are not a threat. How he rationalises continued aggressive incursions into the territory of south pacific nations is beyond me. He has no comment on Xi's open support for Putin.

I have no love for the US, they burned their WWII points years ago. But I see no other rational choice...