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Thread: Life and times of a black hole

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    I have come to the viewpoint that as the earth has a molten core at 6000 C which is the same as the surface of our sun and a cooled mantle can form , a super massive sun (black hole) could potentially form a mantel around it also. Such a super-mass migt be up to or more than 20 Billion times bigger in mass than our sun but I see nothing that would stop this . Perhaps its not light being bent back , but that, really , no light gets out
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    the whole point of a black hole is that it takes this mass of its original sun and gravity makes the particles collapse back on itself producing a small but super dense body that has such mass (and therefore, attraction (gravity)) that not even light can not escape from its pull, giving the appearance of a "hole" in space. I dont believe that it has anything to do with a "mantle" forming around a outside of the body???
    Last edited by porkop; 02-05-13 at 01:02 PM.
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    You're about 9 orders of magnitude out there for Black Hole formation. 20 solar masses is enough, 20 billion is not even realistic. The largest known stars don't exceed 200 solar masses.
    Temperature to cause a black hole is something about 10^28eV. It's not the surface temperature and it's nowhere near 6000 degrees C.
    The electrostatic repulsion of atoms an their baryons is more than enough support their volume. It requires massive stellar temperature and pressure to overcome not just the EM force, but also the strong and weak nuclear forces. Only the temperature and pressure of large stars is capable of this. Black holes occur nowhere else.
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    Heres one with 4 million times the mass and there is one with a projected 20 Billion



    Here 70 million


    Here a billion


    If the planet earth can form a mantle why not a supermassive black sun.

    6000 degrees is the predicted temperature at the center of our planet and that is the same as the surface of the sun .
    You are just being antagonistic and contrary as usual with a strong smell of an oversized , overworked and overestimated ego -piss off trash you don't research what you talk about
    Last edited by tytower; 03-05-13 at 07:40 AM.
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    Your being unfair! Trash has very good knowledge and is always helpful with the information he passes on.
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    Quote Originally Posted by porkop View Post
    Your being unfair! Trash has very good knowledge and is always helpful with the information he passes on.
    don't worry and don't waste your breath
    tytower is the slightly more educated equivalent lifeform to mooeee
    but a lot grumpier

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    way to many big words in this thread for me
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    Hey, be nice to tytower guys.
    He's being sensible and trying hard.

    What you're referencing there tytower are supermassive galactic black holes, not stellar black holes, and most definitely not the mass of the parent star that created them.
    The mass your quoting is what they are now, not what they were when they formed.

    Galactic black holes do not acquire their mass from their parent star which existed early in the life of the universe. Those initial stars while big were not any bigger or heavier than stars we know today.
    They were big enough and short lived to produce a hypernova and thus a stellar black hole.
    Many other stars, black holes and galaxies then coalesce and the initial black hole picks up mass and grows.

    piss off trash you don't research what you talk about
    I'm sorry that you think that tytower, but you might be projecting your own attitude upon me.
    Take a look at the above posts, you're not liked on any of the forums that you've been on.
    It's a standing joke that you've been banned from forums which we think were impossible to get a ban.
    There was even a competition on another forum to see who could find the most forums you'd been banned from.

    And despite your abuse towards me I have said in the past that I treat every one of your posts like you haven't said anything stupid prior.
    This is post is no different and you're at it again. How long do you think you'll last her before you get banned again ?

    So rather than getting abusive and getting yourself banned, maybe you'd like to consider what it is I said and why.
    6000 degrees C isn't enough for the formation of black holes even at the pressures at the center of the earth. It requires a LOT more energy than that to form even a tiny black hole.

    There's also something I heard on radio national today that you might be interested in.
    Physics on the fringe.

    Now I try not to laugh when I listened to it and thought of you. (yes - I'm having a dig at you now).
    But despite that I would recommend that you tune in to Radio National on Monday afternoon about 1 or 2pm. (I think it's replayed at 2pm).
    I would think you will find it interesting and you will listen to it and say, "Trash is right - that does sound like me."
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    For us not so smart and if your into Hawking, then "Stephen Hawkings Grand Design" will explain it easy enough

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    These two colliding galaxies have the combined mass of 10 Billion of our suns . I would suggest a lot more . A supermassive black sun at the center of each.
    It would be turmoil in there as everything collides and finds a new stable orbit. 330 million light years away so what we see now is 330 million years old , it happened like this 330 million years ago . Takes 300 thousand years to travel from one side to the other at the speed of light



    A bit like splitting the atom but with two equally big particles?
    Last edited by tytower; 10-05-13 at 08:05 PM.
    My Health , my Family and my Property are not Government business. Governments should do what they were designed to do . Govern the issues best done by a central body in the country.

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    To the one responsible for fixing my profile I thank you greatly . I did notice.

  • 19-05-13, 02:50 AM


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    The title of the thread is rather ambiguous when you don't notice it is under "General Science". I thought it might be a biography of Anthony Mundine.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Coldamus View Post
    The title of the thread is rather ambiguous when you don't notice it is under "General Science". I thought it might be a biography of Anthony Mundine.
    Nah mate, the word 'arse' is missing

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    Just re read this forum from the beginning, must admit i have enjoyed it immensly even tho Tytower could be off the mark a little i do enjoy your replies Trash, keep it up, that coming from a person with iq of 2 digits
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    Thanks allover, but two digits is more than enough to give it a go.
    That's one of the basic principles of science is that anybody can give it a go and verify things for themselves.
    If you have a thought or an idea, them put it forward and test it.

    What you want is to have somebody demonstrate the flaws with it. If they cannot, then you have something worth noting.
    Or as often happens the failure of one theory provides basis for another.

    An excellent example is the Michaelson-Moorely experiment. The experiment was a failure, but that information was important for forming the basis for relativity theory.
    Now a very similar experiment is being performed to detect gravitational waves. We've seen examples of simulations of gravitational waves with two balls rolling around each other on a membrane.
    The theory of gravitational waves demonstrated. But what happens if we don't detect them in the real universe (ie if they don't exist) ?
    That would mean our concept of gravity isn't quite right and worse it would fail to explain why things fall. Or rather, how things fall.

    Back on black holes.
    What do they have and what don't they have ?
    They have mass and velocity.
    How about volume and shape ?
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    Quote Originally Posted by trash View Post
    What do they have and what don't they have ?
    They have mass and velocity.
    How about volume and shape ?
    Holes are usually round and hollow. The diameter of the dark bit should be enough for the volume.
    Question is, are they really a void?
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    Are they really round ?
    If a black hole is moving (and they all are) that changes their shape.
    And when two orbit each other, what shape are they then ?

    The volume of the sungularity is zero or something less.
    The volume of the event horizon is a reflection of what has been sucked into the black hole.
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    I was referring to the part we don't see just beyond the event horizon, which I thought defines the outer edge of a black hole and therefore has some kind of volume and looks like a sphere or flattened out if it is rotating or egg shaped if moving along a path.
    Two orbiting each other should look like eggs with their longer ends always pointing to each other.


    You are talking about the centre which theoretically has no volume.
    While this is all very nice mathematically, I don't grasp the concept of infinite density practically. Those particles got to fit into something, even teeny tiny small.
    Infinite is just not something we practically find, not even in the universe.


    For me the singularity is simply a theory because we have not found a better way of describing the situation properly.


    ...and where did you get the negative volume? Sounds a bit SciFi
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    ... and because I think singularity is SciFi:
    How about the particles have gone somewhere else but left their gravitaional force behind.

    Where did they do? ...Look at dark matter.
    But it still has gravitational forces? ...They joined the Dark Force
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    The bottom limit is the planck scale, ~1.6x10^-35.

    I don't have a problem with matter or rather existence being reduced to something less than zero or the smallest possible unit.
    I think it says something about the nature of space that its gravitational influence still exists. Even that the influence has a field effect giving it volume of the event horizon.

    On thing for sure is that understanding gravity is where it's at. This is one of the reasons why I think gravitational waves (if they exist) will provide some clues.
    If gravitational waves don't exist, then gravity is a lot more interesting and mysterious.
    Yes I am an agent of Satan, but my duties are largely ceremonial.

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    Well planck is a finite number so I don't have a problem with that either.


    However if the volume of mass reaches zero, gravity is infinite.
    Thanks to gravitational time dilation, nothing will ever reach the centre, so in practical terms singularity can not exist until the end of time (for those outside the Schwartzschild radius).


    The concepts of singularity are literally pointless and explain nothing. Just errors in the mathematical models that are trying to explain a phenomenon.


    As for what happens to the object that falls in... my greatest wish would to be sent within the Schwartzschild radius in a capsule of some kind of protective nutrient clear jelly before my time has come, rather than be sent to a hospital or worse: an age care centre.
    This era of thoughtless consumption must end so we can encourage a world of creative geniuses rather than consumer idiots.


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