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Thread: Life and times of a black hole

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    End of time model works fine for me too. The end of time looks like an infinitely long time in the future.

    Gravity is not infinite. You've made a mistake there. If I take a 1kg lead ball, then it's mass is 1kg.
    Now I compress it so that it's volume is half, but it's mass is still 1kg. It's gravitational influence is still that of a 1kg mass.
    Now I compress it down to neutronium (the stuff of neutron stars). It may be physically much smaller, but it's still a 1kg mass and still exhibits the same gravitational field.
    Now I crush it to a zero planck scale. It no longer has volume, but it still exhibits the information of it's mass.

    A singularity is just a way to describe what we think is happening. It may not be correct but it is a good fit for the description so far.

    Hehe.... sounds like you might be volunteering for a mission to Mars.
    As for the black hole... we know what happens on the way down. You're going to be torn apart at the subatomic level before half of what was you is spat out.
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  • #42
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    Always consider the distance between the objects when you observe gravity.
    That is the only reason why black holes are dangerous. Black holes (even their event horizon) are very small. The Schwartzshchild radius of our sun would only be 3km and it would cause no threat to have black holes of this size in our solar system provided we are in a stabile orbit around them. Although I wonder how the orbit path of planets between a sun and a black hole orbiting each other would look like, maybe a rotating figure eight pattern? Surely must exist somewhere in the universe.


    Anyhow, gravity is a force that occurs between objects of certain mass and the inverse square of their distance. If this distance becomes zero, gravity reaches infinity, the blobs of mass experience infinite acceleration, reach the speed of light ...kaboom!
    Yes, this is all the old Newton.
    Thankfully Einstein saves the day *cough* universe when he bends things politely with gravitation so that we will never find enough time for that to happen.


    ...but then there are those annoying ppl who claim that singularity exists where relativity fails.
    ...until somebody discovers another theory that avoids that particular singularity and gets a Nobel prize.


    Hehe.... sounds like you might be volunteering for a mission to Mars.
    Who's childhood dream who grew up in the sixties/seventies wasn't it, to end up in space or another planet.? All that's left today is to theorize about it.

    As for the black hole... we know what happens on the way down. You're going to be torn apart at the subatomic level before half of what was you is spat out.
    Couldn't imagine a better funeral. Much better than slowly burning in a church full of hypocrites.
    Of course the G-force will put me to sleep before that and it will happen so fast that I will not notice discomfort, even to trying to get in 'slowly' in a spiral orbit for more thrills.
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  • #43
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    If this distance becomes zero, gravity reaches infinity.
    But that's what a black hole looks like. Gravity is infinite (or appears so) past the event horizon.

    The problem is that space itself isn't being sucked in, outside of the singularity (as in the zero point) normal space still exists and gravity behaves normally as expected.
    It's that point between zero and the event horizon that space itself 'should' be normal though slightly distorted

    The information about how much mass was consumed is still there. Black holes come in different sizes. So while all that mass has zero volume, it's existence is still there.
    In your version of the black hole, that existence must have volume, which is fair enough. The question is, how much information can you squeeze into a single point of existence ?

    I don't have a problem with mass being reduced to nothing. Nobody seems to have a problem with gravity itself becoming infinite past the event horizon.

    Reality is, that beyond the event horizon all bets appear to be off.
    We can only speculate what is down there by what information escapes.

    At the other end is what happens to small black holes as they evaporate ? This is a bit of a mystery to me. When a black hole dies and becomes so small that it ceases to exist.
    What does a black hole look like when it's mass is less than 1amu ?
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  • #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by trash View Post
    At the other end is what happens to small black holes as they evaporate ? This is a bit of a mystery to me. When a black hole dies and becomes so small that it ceases to exist.
    What does a black hole look like when it's mass is less than 1amu ?
    I read somewhere that it (supposedly) ends up as gamma radiation and a residue of matter, maybe a bit like the result of fusion.

    Fusion is also happening at the event horizon. I am thinking that for the particles that just have entered the black hole nothing changes much (in their time frame) and more fusion occurs once inside. When this occurs mass is lost, gravity is a tiny bit less and something might escape (radiation or particles) just on the inside boundary, which might make the border of the event horizon a bit fuzzy.
    This fuzziness might seal the fate of micro black holes ...or not ...just a silly idea that came to mind
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  • #45
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    Umm.. no. Matter tends to ripped apart, not squashed together and it's spat out at the poles as jets of X-rays.
    Matter also emits energy as it falls in. If it didn't lose energy, then it couldn't fall in.

    The event horizon isn't the bottom of the black hole, it's the top It's just the point where gravity overwhelms everything else. We might call it the point of infinite gravity.

    However, the black hole's cousin, the neutron star is more like what your describing. It have a definite volume. I often wonder what happens to an atom, lets say an atom of helium that falls into
    a neutron star. Actually, this is kind of thing must happen with neutron star binary systems. An example is Cygnus X1. This is a binary star system where the invisible companion is a black hole.
    The mass of the companion is too big to be a neutron star. So the black hole could have formed from a blue supergiant star that went supernova OR it may have been a smaller blue star that went supernova but didn't have the mass to form a black hole. Instead it formed a neutron star that has been consuming mass from it's companion. The question is what happens to that mass as it is crushed and becomes neutronium, and what happens to a neutron star when it exceeds it's the critical limit where it collapses.

    In terms of "fusion" we have two problems. Both of them consume energy, they don't emit it.
    Again, lets use Helium as the matter falling in. If we neutrons are atomic number "0". A neutron star is just one big atom/isotope of neutronium. (such a cool word).
    It has an atomic mass which while isn't infinite, it's working towards it It still has an atomic number of zero.
    If we fission helium (and element lighter than Iron) they consume energy. This logic also applies to Neutrons, to create a neutron from a proton requires. It's an endothermic, it consumes energy.
    Likewise if we consider the neutron star to be some kind of super atom, like a trans-Einsteinium element, then that too consumes energy if we fuse atoms together.

    It doesn't sound right, but it is; heads I win, tails you lose.

    What this means is that mass is not lost, it's gained ! Though that can't be right because energy is being lost as heat/light/X-rays as it falls in to either a neutron star or black hole.
    So there's a PhD for somebody. Prove that there are less X-rays and energy emitted than their should be indicating that this missing energy is consumed as mass.

    On the other hand, Hawking Radiation is what your describing with the "fuzziness". The theory is that energy escapes the black hole through pair production at the event horizon.
    Thus, the black hole evaporates over time. It's not a silly idea at all and a lot of time has been spent thinking about it.
    At the moment, the theory is generally accepted. It may yet turn out not to be correct, but as it stands it's the best fit description.
    Find Hawking Radiation and prove it's existence, there's another PhD and Nobel prize

    Personally, I had no trouble accepting that Hawking Radiation is possible and that black holes can evaporate. But these days I'm a little more skeptical that they can evaporate.
    It's more to do with entropy. Is it lost in a black hole. I'm getting the feeling that is it (though this is not the current accepted view) but that information may be represented in the mass of the black hole or some other way.


    If anybody knows or can find something about accretion disks around neutron stars, then post it. It's a bit of a mystery what happens to stuff that falls in.
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  • #46
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    As far as I have read the accretion discs are so similar that you often don't know if it is from a black hole or a neutron star.


    Maybe a black hole could be basically just an over dense neutron star with enough gravity time dilation to make things look like they stand still at the event horizon. A neutron star in suspended animation


    I find things and some facts I didn't know about are nice and simple explained here:



    Didn't know about that formula for the radius, although it lacks consequential explanation.


    On this link he goes further into neutron stars and some info about their accretion disk :




    However some other interesting links on the bottom of the first page didn't work for me.
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    Tytower has been quiet, so I thought I'd give this thread a nudge with a really nice article on Black Holes from ABC radio.
    It's got a very nice description (two actually) of what happens at the accretion disk and how X-rays and now atoms are expelled from a black hole.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tytower View Post
    Seems to have gone quiet here.

    Looking at the picture of a pulsing neutrino star and its surrounding system
    I wondered if a black hole originally forms from space debris accumulating and then becoming a sun and then a solar system, gradually accumulating mass until it reached a point where the gravity exceeded the ability of light to escape, thence becoming a black hole that would continue on accumulating matter.

    This could continue until some unknown point of mass at which a supernova occurs which blows the material outwards and compresses the center and at some point the mass stops moving away and starts falling back in to restart the whole thing over again. The process running over trillions of our years. Somewhat like a heartbeat.

    is a very pretty real picture (enhanced) to print twice , stick back to back and hang from your childs bedroom ceiling . Bring out the science fiction/fact bug we all have.
    That black-hole looks beautiful; but it would not be beautiful to drift into it though...lol.
    All of these theories somewhat sound logical. The only problem is that we weren't there to make eye-witness claims as to the fact of these happenings actually happening. Therefore, they are what we call safe scientific assumptions. Good theory though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Carneita2000 View Post
    All of these theories somewhat sound logical. The only problem is that we weren't there to make eye-witness claims as to the fact of these happenings actually happening.
    Two separate things here. One is; Tytowers theories and the other is the theories we have based on observation.

    For example how stars die.
    Small mass stars like yellow dwarfs (like our own sun) expand into red giants before blowing off the outer layers leaving a white dwarf remnant.
    Supergiant stars end their life in a supernova leaving a neutron star as a remnant.
    Very large mass Supergiant stars or Blue Supergiants also end their life as Supernovas but leave behind a black hole remnant.

    And that's the simple versions. There are other ways to create these remnant stars.
    These involve binary star systems where the remnant is parasitically feeding from it's companion(s).

    A giant star with a white dwarf companion. The white dwarf sucks material from it's twin until it reaches a critical limit and becomes a Type 1A Supernova and a neutron star.
    It's also possible that two white dwarfs can merge to also form a supernova and neutron star.

    And of course there are examples of neutron stars feeding from their companions, neutron stars merging (possibly becoming GRB's and black holes) as well as combinations of stars, white dwarfs, neutron stars and black holes merging. Cygnus I is an example of a Stellar Black hole feeding from it's companion star.
    At the top of the food chain is supermassive black holes (at the center of galaxies) colliding.

    ----

    Tytowers theories on the other hand are a little whacky at times and usually incorrect for some trivial reasons. He doesn't understand basic concepts that have already been proven.
    He tries, but gets upset if somebody corrects him or tries to explain something he doesn't understand.
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    Carl Sagan is not here anymore I am sure he would love to have a go at this one Trash, By the way Was that you halfway up a tower yesterday nr the Highway ??
    what happens if I press this red button ??

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    The universe is just an endless supply of more questions. The satellite Gaia got my attention this week. It's going to map the galaxy. With about 100 billion stars to examine, it may take some time.
    It will determine their position in the galaxy and their speed and direction.


    yep. that was me up the tower. I've been swapping over antennas and re-running some new coax.

    New wide band log periodic with low noise amp for snooping.
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    Rebuilt the station disaster and removed a few other redundant antennas.
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    This thread has gone quiet, so here is some more info
    There is a fine line between "Hobby" and "Madness"

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    Yep, If I had to guess, I'd say that dwarf galaxy was a larger galaxy with it's halo or disc of stars stripped out by a collision with the parent galaxy.

    Some casual reading I've been doing, there is usually a relationship between the size of a galaxy's central black hole and the size of it's galactic bulge or halo.
    There has been a bit of a search for intermediate size black holes. Stellar mass black holes are known from about 4 solar masses to 100 and super massive black holes which live at the center of galaxies are typically >500,000 solar masses. It's the black holes that are in between that are a bit rare.
    It looks like globular clusters may be host to them. I tend to think that globular clusters are also dwarf galaxy remnants, but I don't think that is correct and astronomers believe they form inside the host galaxy.

    Spiral galaxies that don't have a bulge also appear to be candidates for intermediate black holes.
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    Ok Trash and Nomeat, holding you both responsible for this phenomenon
    I know it is the opposite of a black hole but thought i would include it here
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    I'm not so sure allover. The rapid inflationary period of the universe I would have thought wouldn't allow gravity to catch up with matter.

    I'm not even sure that the inflation isn't some kind of illusion.
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    I think the discussion is moving decidedly in my favour - see first post page 1.

    from (Reuters)

    Astronomers find giant black hole in early universe

    By Irene Klotz

    CAPE CANAVERAL, Fla Wed Feb 25, 2015 2:27pm EST

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    CAPE CANAVERAL, Fla (Reuters) – - A black hole 12 billion times as massive as the sun has been found in a glowing quasar that existed when the universe was just a fraction of its current age, scientists said on Wednesday.

    The discovery challenges currently held theories that black holes and their host galaxies grew in relative lockstep over the eons.

    Found within the distant celestial bodies called quasars, black holes are regions of space so dense with matter that not even light can travel fast enough to escape their gravitational pits. Black holes are detected by effects they have on nearby galaxies, stars and dust.

    The newly found black hole contains the equivalent of about 12 billion suns, more than twice the mass of previously found black holes of similar age, said researcher Bram Venemans with the Max Planck Institute for Astronomy in Germany.

    By comparison, the black hole lurking at the center of the Milky Way galaxy has about 4 million to 5 million times the mass of the sun.

    Scientists cannot explain how the newly found black hole grew so quickly. Theoretically, it could not have fed off surrounding gas as fast and as long as it would have needed to reach its massive size under currently understood laws of physics.

    “Our discovery presents a serious challenge to theories about the black hole growth in the early universe," lead researcher Xue-Bing Wu with Peking University in Beijing, wrote in an email.

    "It may require either very special ways to grow the black hole within a very short time or the existence of a huge seed black hole when the first generation stars and galaxies formed. Both are difficult to be explained by the current theories.”

    Another option is that two massive black holes in the early universe collided, forming an even larger black hole, Venemans said.

    Clues may come from the quasar itself, which is glowing brightly enough to illuminate interstellar matter between itself and telescopes on and orbiting Earth. Ancient quasars may provide information about how stars formed in the early universe.
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    Yep, it's a bit of a mystery how a black hole can become so massive so soon in the early universe.
    But it's not completely impossible. Lets put it into perspective.
    Our galaxy has a mass of about 800 billion suns. (not including dark matter).
    A tiny 4 million of that is Sagitarius A.

    So 12 billion solar masses is about 1.5% of the milky way, and you've got about a billion years time frame to play with.
    Unusual yes, impossible no.
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    The important part however is that I think the big bang is something that happens at various random times to each and every galaxy individually. It explodes out then implodes to a really big black mass which at some point becomes unstable and it explodes again. Over and over , not just a few billions of years but forever as we know it.

    It leaves the creation of the universe and age of the universe un -answerable by us . What is it Who or what made it? We are never going to know. Like an inteligent molecule on our planet wondering what it is and why it is . It ain't ever going to know .
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    There is no evidence to suggest there is an implosion of any kind let alone multiple implosions or anything as such related to the hundreds of billions of galaxies.

    I think what you're trying to describe is a cyclic universe, which is a series of big bangs followed by big crunches. Current evidence does not support such a theory on any scale.

    The age of the universe is calculable. Just because it's big doesn't mean it's impossible.
    So what we end up with, based on what we know*, points to the universe being about 13.7 Billion years old. A single event with no apparent end.
    And there is no reason why this theory cannot change. It may be an illusion and something else different is happening in the universe. But without evidence to support a correction, the current theory and values stand.
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    Came across this recently

    There is a picture in the link

    Astronomers have long thought that the bulge at the center of our Milky Way galaxy is populated with very old stars. But a survey of the area has revealed an unexpected feature: a disk of much younger stars hidden among the veterans. A team of astronomers used survey data taken by the European Southern Observatory’s VISTA telescope at Cerro Paranal in Chile. VISTA is able to observe at infrared wavelengths, which can penetrate the clouds of dust that normally shroud the galactic center. The astronomers were looking for variable stars call Cepheids, which pulse at a rate related to their brightness. This allows astronomers to calculate how far away they are. As the team reports today in Astrophysical Journal Letters, among the 655 Cepheids they found, there were 35 examples of a subset known as classical Cepheids (red dots; the yellow star is our sun), which are typically young stars. The 35 varied in age from 25 million to 100 million years old, striplings compared with the much more elderly stars all around them. Even more surprising, all of the 35 were arranged in a thin disk slicing through the central bulge (see above). The discovery suggests there has been a constant supply of young stars to the galactic center, but where do they come from? The galactic center is thought to have used up its supply of gas from which to make stars long long ago, so astronomers will have to figure out some mechanism by which young stars are moved inward from farther out in the galaxy.
    Now they will have to try fit their model to the new facts . I still think it more likely that new star stuff is being produced and sprayed out of the black mass's poles as it spins
    Last edited by tytower; 29-10-15 at 09:32 AM.
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