Results 1 to 14 of 14

Thread: Indy cars run 98% ethanol.

  1. #1
    Senior Member
    Godzilla's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Melbourne
    Age
    59
    Posts
    12,740
    Thanks
    16,580
    Thanked 7,201 Times in 3,648 Posts
    Rep Power
    2198
    Reputation
    79113

    Default Indy cars run 98% ethanol.

    I was just watching the Indy telecast and heard that they wanted to run cars at 100% ethanol but had to settle on 98%.

    Anyone want to start growing fruit trees and making moonshine?

    Aparently they had to add 2% petrol to stop people drinking it.LOL

    And who said ethanol was bad for your engine? There running at 98% with no problems, power was a little down so they increased engine capacity.

    I remember as a kid watching my old man playing with it, the car ran great on it.

    Hmmm maybe the govt would lose too many tax $ on it.

    From here


    Fuel

    At its inception, the IRL used traditional Methanol racing fuel, which had been the defacto standard since the 1964 Indianapolis 500 Eddie Sachs - Dave MacDonald crash.

    In 2005, driver Paul Dana brought the sponsorship of the "Ethanol Promotion and Information Council" (EPIC) to the IRL. EPIC is a consortium of ethanol producers that advocate the use of ethanol. The member of EPIC were anxious to address public concerns of that era that ethanol use led to engine damage and poor performance when used in street cars, and believed that the IRL would convince the public that these beliefs were not true.

    For the 2006 season the fuel was a 90%/10% mixture of methanol and ethanol. Starting in 2007, the League advertised "100% Fuel Grade Ethanol" which is a mixture of 98% ethanol and 2% gasoline, provided by Lifeline Foods of Saint Joseph, MO. The additives satisfies the US Government's demand that the alcohol be unfit for human consumption, and adds color in case of a fire.

    To compensate for the loss of power due to the use of ethanol, the displacement was increased back to 3.5L. Since ethanol gets better fuel mileage than methanol, the fuel tanks in the car were decreased.

    Compared to methanol, human contact with the current IRL fuel is much less harsh, and the fumes much less irritating. The fumes are often compared with the sweet smell of apple cider or apple cobbler. Unlike methanol, ethanol is not caustic and does not cause chemical burns when it comes in contact with the skin. It also is less polluting when spilled compared to methanol.



Look Here ->
  • #2
    Senior Member
    best4less's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    7,684
    Thanks
    3,487
    Thanked 2,207 Times in 1,132 Posts
    Rep Power
    757
    Reputation
    15165

    Default

    MMM how to extract petrol from the mix would be a good place to start
    When you do things right, people won't be sure that you have done anything at all

  • #3
    Senior Member
    Godzilla's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Melbourne
    Age
    59
    Posts
    12,740
    Thanks
    16,580
    Thanked 7,201 Times in 3,648 Posts
    Rep Power
    2198
    Reputation
    79113

    Default

    Mate if they legalize this stuff for public use their going to have major alcohol problems in a certain minority group.

    I wonder if you cook it in a still on low flame one more time if it will remove the petrol content?

    Cheap nasty grog and fuel with no tax.

  • #4
    Registered User mate's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Posts
    1,615
    Thanks
    88
    Thanked 162 Times in 118 Posts
    Rep Power
    0
    Reputation
    -233

    Default

    i'm sure that Ethanol is run on an engine in an Indy car that is built to run on the fuel. The heads the gaskets the compressions the fuel lines etc, made and designed to use an ethanol fuel. Your standard commodore is not set up to run on this fuel, therefore lies the 'risk factor' of doing so.

  • #5
    Senior Member
    Godzilla's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Melbourne
    Age
    59
    Posts
    12,740
    Thanks
    16,580
    Thanked 7,201 Times in 3,648 Posts
    Rep Power
    2198
    Reputation
    79113

    Default

    I think the biggest risk is the fuel lines deteriorating, they could be upgraded.

    The burning characteristics of ethanol is similar to petrol but the mass is different. Similarly to going LPG.

    To maximize its potential, camshaft timing, compression lifted, ignition timing and injector pulse duration may need to be increased.

    In the normal world a ECU regraph would be more than enough.

    We managed it on a points and carb engine without a sweat so i dont think its such a big deal.

    I use to run Shell V-POWER Racing in the GTR, that was of some ethanol content. Loved it while it was avaliable, use to light up all 4 instantly.

    In some E.U. countries they have 50% and 100% ethanol avaliable, the U.S. has 85% ethanol content avaliable for consumers.

    The problem is more a case that if your engine runs lean it will go bang. Lets also remember that manufacturers tend to set the engines on the rich side.

    Feel worried? Set it to run richer.

  • #6
    Senior Member
    weirdo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Posts
    5,458
    Thanks
    4,638
    Thanked 3,135 Times in 1,633 Posts
    Rep Power
    0
    Reputation
    29602

    Default

    Alcohol is anhydrous meaning it will attract water from the atmoshpere.
    My still pumps out around the 96% alcohol and I think 96.5% is about the highest you can get. If you want to get it higher than that you'd have to extract it under vacuum. But then as soon as it's exposed to air it will 'suck' the moisture in.
    I've always been meaning to run my sons rc car on it but have never tried it yet.

  • #7
    Senior Member
    beer4life's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    The Nether World.
    Age
    90
    Posts
    6,375
    Thanks
    1,351
    Thanked 1,452 Times in 1,066 Posts
    Rep Power
    559
    Reputation
    7552

    Cool Where's Elliot Ness,

    Quote Originally Posted by Godzilla View Post
    Mate if they legalize this stuff for public use their going to have major alcohol problems in a certain minority group.

    I wonder if you cook it in a still on low flame one more time if it will remove the petrol content?

    Cheap nasty grog and fuel with no tax.
    G'Day Digger,
    far be it from me to suggest evasion of the country's main source of income.
    This just fell off the back of a brewery wagon.
    boiling point @ 1 bar. Degrees C and F
    Alcohol - ethyl (grain, ethanol) C2H5OH 79 172.4
    Petrol 95 203

    An expanded list of Boiling points;


    I know nuffin,
    Kindest Regards, " The Druid "...........

  • #8
    Senior Member
    Godzilla's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Melbourne
    Age
    59
    Posts
    12,740
    Thanks
    16,580
    Thanked 7,201 Times in 3,648 Posts
    Rep Power
    2198
    Reputation
    79113

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by beer4life View Post
    G'Day Digger,
    far be it from me to suggest evasion of the country's main source of income.
    This just fell off the back of a brewery wagon.
    boiling point @ 1 bar. Degrees C and F
    Alcohol - ethyl (grain, ethanol) C2H5OH 79 172.4
    Petrol 95 203

    An expanded list of Boiling points;


    I know nuffin,
    Kindest Regards, " The Druid "...........
    ROLPML....Beer4life your a classic.

    Thanks LOL

    Now we all know how to cook it.
    Last edited by Godzilla; 25-10-08 at 07:51 PM.

  • #9
    Senior Member
    beer4life's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    The Nether World.
    Age
    90
    Posts
    6,375
    Thanks
    1,351
    Thanked 1,452 Times in 1,066 Posts
    Rep Power
    559
    Reputation
    7552

    Talking Pure ethanol for your motor?

    Quote Originally Posted by Godzilla View Post
    ROLPML....Beer4life your a classic.

    Thanks LOL

    Now we all know how to cook it.
    G'Day Cobber,
    You may or may not be aware how to measure the % of ethanol in your fuel.
    If you place an amount of fuel mix in a glass column with a similar amount of water, and because ethanol is hygroscopic, it all goes into the water, and it is a simple matter to measure where the separation is to get the relative % of ethanol.
    If you want to remove the ethanol from your fuel, so that you have pure petrol for your car, you could do the same on a larger scale in say, a clear plastic container ( beer brewer) and decant the petrol from the top or drain the ethanol/water mixture from the bottom and discard. But please do not tip down the drain and cause pollution of our waterways.
    I do pickup and disposal in your area as required.

    Kindest Regard, " The Druid "......

  • #10
    Senior Member roguefan99's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Posts
    1,459
    Thanks
    1
    Thanked 148 Times in 109 Posts
    Rep Power
    258
    Reputation
    633

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by mate View Post
    i'm sure that Ethanol is run on an engine in an Indy car that is built to run on the fuel.
    Absolutely right. The funny thing about this is they have been running on this sort of fuel for years (since I can remember watching Indy Car). Its why the pit lanes have so many buckets of water up and down the lane (water puts out an ethanol fire quickly). There are a few problems with ethanol in racing, one being that no one can see the flame if it lights up.

    Of course whilst its a renewable fuel, its not environmentally friendly as its still generates Carbon dioxide and it comes from corn starch which means that creating this fuel takes away from the food resources of the world, which is why food prices have been going up.
    Coding in C is like sending a 3 year old to do groceries. You gotta tell them exactly what you want or you'll end up with a cupboard full of pop tarts and pancake mix.

  • #11
    Senior Member
    intelliGEORGE's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Sydney, AUSTRALIA
    Age
    43
    Posts
    4,106
    Thanks
    884
    Thanked 1,484 Times in 691 Posts
    Rep Power
    478
    Reputation
    7236

    Default

    Some cars have been running E100 since the 70's but like Roguefan and Mate said, the car has to be designed for it. Buses in Sweden have been on E95 for donkeys years.

    Remember Ethanol is a highly corrosive fuel and to run it in an ordinary car the following have to be modified to accommodate the fuel,

    Fuel Injection System
    Fuel pump
    Fuel pressure devices
    Fuel filter
    Ignition system
    Evaporative system
    Fuel tank
    Catalytic converter
    Engine internals (exposed to the fuel)
    Intake manifold
    Exhaust system

    Again, we see a technology that has been readily available for years, yet we still see manufacturers and governments steer clear and why? Oil, that's why. If Corn or Cane were lucrative commodities then would have seen this technology introduced long ago.

  • #12
    Senior Member
    myf360f1's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Posts
    2,488
    Thanks
    530
    Thanked 584 Times in 267 Posts
    Rep Power
    353
    Reputation
    3652

    Default

    Well Brazil which is one of the biggest producer of ethanol in the world has all their cars running on a minimum of 80% ethanol. For Australia producing ethanol is no probs due to our sugar cane, but for other countries it may mean converting existing or not cleared lands to grow an ethanol producing crop eg corn, maize.... which may impact on the production of food for the world in general.

  • #13
    Senior Member
    Godzilla's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Melbourne
    Age
    59
    Posts
    12,740
    Thanks
    16,580
    Thanked 7,201 Times in 3,648 Posts
    Rep Power
    2198
    Reputation
    79113

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by roguefan99 View Post
    Absolutely right. The funny thing about this is they have been running on this sort of fuel for years (since I can remember watching Indy Car). Its why the pit lanes have so many buckets of water up and down the lane (water puts out an ethanol fire quickly). There are a few problems with ethanol in racing, one being that no one can see the flame if it lights up.
    Actually they ran Methanol, thats the fuel that use that use to scare the crap out of drivers and crew.

    Watching a man hit the ground and start rolling around was a common sight in the pits. Thats what the water was for.

    This was until he end of the 2005 season.
    2006 was 90%methanol/10%ethanol
    2007 onwards was 98% ethanol/2%petrol.

    Another reason for the 2% addition of petrol to ethanol was to make the flame visible.

    Some cars today are built to take it with stainless steel fuel lines and wider range injectors/wide band oxygen sensors. It was in the olden days, pre early 80's that those major problems occurred when ethanol was added to fuel.

    Many of the problems in the early days with low ethanol content mixes were connected to the cleaning properties for ethanol, that use to dislodge the gum and rubbish caused by petrol and block fuel filters and injectors.




    Some car manufacturers today build 'fuel flex' vehicles that can run up to a 85% ethanol content safely.

    Now here comes the fun part.
    Has anyone noticed that Shell optimax has a high ethanol content yet costs more?
    In the early days some independents use to mix it into their "cheap" fuels and add ethanol. Because ethanol had a bad rep, it was a fuel, everyone use to avoid it, cars had a higher fuel consumption on it too. Everyone thought your engine would blow on it.

    Today its been embraced and mixed into our fuels at a low content mix but costs more today due to its higher octane properties and public acceptance.

    What happened to everyone's engines blowing up?LOL

    Now with the higher ethanol fuel prices, and needing more fuel per KM its actually quite expensive to run on it.

    Here is a site with flex fuel vehicles, Mercs, Toyotas etc. Check the US fuel costs and MPG.

    I dont think its worth it if it hurts my pocket that much.

  • #14
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Posts
    99
    Thanks
    2
    Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
    Rep Power
    201
    Reputation
    10

    Default

    There is nothing like the smell of methanol They need to make ethanol fuel smell like methanol when burned and I would use it.

  • Bookmarks

    Posting Permissions

    • You may not post new threads
    • You may not post replies
    • You may not post attachments
    • You may not edit your posts
    •