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Thread: Can a normal Solar Controiller work ok with 24v LifePO4 batterys?

  1. #21
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    Ah, Ok then the price was misleading at first view. \_(ツ)_/
    This is the link you pointed me to.






    I just went back & made some selections to get the correct price.



    So it's not so cheap, but what's inside the box? is it quality?

    Personally, I'm going to buy quality components & build my own.
    Last edited by Tiny; 10-06-24 at 05:59 PM.
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  • #22
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    Yes $429 would be bargain... LOL!

    $2000, is it good quality? Who knows..
    Stainless Steel case?

    Make your own?
    Again, it's buying the - Quality - Blue Cells, and then a 'good' BMS.

    I guess it's easy in a way. Plenty of YT videos on it. Humm,

    Cheers,
    GT250.

  • #23
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    This place is in Oz & has quality stock at a reasonable price.
    I'm thinking of getting a small kit to upgrade my garage power system & see how it goes.
    Note: shipping is included in the price = free shipping.

    This place has same components & fully assembled battery in steel case. Pictures look like quality builds.
    Free postage.
    Last edited by Tiny; 11-06-24 at 02:52 PM.
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    Hi Tiny,
    I understand the 'comfort' to buy in Australia.

    Your find, once one digs a bit deeper, is what my issue is with buying this LPO4 stuff from

    Did you notice the (made in) Australia🇦🇺... I'm not sure where that place is, LOL!
    [QUOTE=Tiny;881259]This place is in Oz & has quality stock at a reasonable price.

    Cycles are listed at 6000+.
    They seem to purchase these EVE cells from Muller Energy, based in NSW.
    Both Muller Energy and Lithuimway, seem to only have Mobile phone numbers.
    Muller Energy is listing these EVE cells at 3000+ cycles!?

    """"Long Cycle Life: Offers 3000+ cycles for extended battery life"""".

    Muller energy are selling - 1 Piece - at $335. So 8 (25.6v) x $335 = $2680. No BMS.

    On Aliexpress, a seller (I just did a rough look), with the 'official' EVE 3.2v 304Ah, 8 pieces $1400 free Bus bars and free delivery - no BMS.

    Same seller with EVE but 280Ah and a 200A BMS, Free delivery $1555.


    OK. I have just asked this Aliexpress seller for a quote for Genuine EVE cells (8x), to give 24v with a 200A BMS, including Bus bars and delivery.

    All good fun Tiny

    Cheers,
    GT250.

  • #25
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    Ah I see. The first one has a physical address. Unit 5/18 Blanck Street, Ormeau, QLD 4208


    The second one is vague;
    Lithiumway Phone: 0436426657 Rockhampton QLD Australia.

    Good to know where to buy the EVE cells direct, thanks.

    I haven't used Aliexpress, not sure of their integrity.
    Cheers, Tiny
    "You can lead a person to knowledge, but you can't make them think? If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem.
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    Humm, Unit 5/18 Blanck Street, Ormeau, QLD 4208...
    Didn't see that address - sometimes I am up in that area with my work..humm.. Might be worth a pop in

    As for AliExpress, I do use them often. As mentioned, most stuff comes from China. And AliExpress - to me anyway - is a shopping portal whereby the actual factories (in some cases), sell direct to us.
    You'll often see large discounts for quantity - so I assume that Australian buyers, get the discount and then on sell them locally.

    I have had a reply from the supplier - of whom so far to the best of my ability - supplies to others, the EVE cells.

    For a 24v EVE cells and 200A BMS with bars and M6 studs - $USD 717 (no delivery). That's about $1100. NO CASE!
    Waiting for delivery price.

    Cheers,
    Alan.

    PS: If you're an electronic/gadget tinker like myself and others here on the forum, there's a YouTube channel called Great Scott. He buys lots of gadgets from AliExpress and works out if they do what they say on the box

  • #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by GT250 View Post
    Humm, Unit 5/18 Blanck Street, Ormeau, QLD 4208...
    Didn't see that address - sometimes I am up in that area with my work..humm.. Might be worth a pop in
    It's definitely legit as he offers in-store pickup. In his video's he looks & sounds like a Queenslander. .
    He has informative videos about the products he sells including setup & assembly.
    Last edited by Tiny; 12-06-24 at 09:38 AM.
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    Ok.
    I have found out a bit more info about these 'EVE' brand batteries.
    Tiny, I will try and go and visit the guy tomorrow, time pending.

    If he does indeed have the Battery from the supplier, I am talking to via AliExpress, then it will be down to price and that a local seller is offering the warranty.

    From AliExpress: I asked them - Are they genuine EVE cells? I do not know if the pic means they are...



    Next: I asked for more BMS information: Seems to be a picture (guess via the BT option), that one 'might' be able to see on a phone/pc etc...?
    Interesting, that each cell seems to have an individual 'mac sort of' address.

    Would this be classed a good quality Assurance QA - sort of thing, if they are going to that much detail.....?



    Next: I asked for the actual BMS charging Amps. As some 200A BMS on other battery's, stated only 100A charging.



    Picture of the 3.2V cell. Seems ok. But what do I know... Another learning thing/curve for me... LOL!



    And to top it all - like a DOH! - Moment. The 'supposed to be' EVE manufacture.
    Lots of fancy graphics and Photo's. As in all these China things, A pinch of salt....



    EDIT: Just received a price: 24v LPO4, Bus Bars, Nuts, 200A BMS Inc delivery to the GoldCoast. USD$ 873 (AUS 1,350?), - but no case, and one has to consider the GST...!



    Anyway, got to go, tea a calling...

    Cheers,
    GT250.
    Last edited by GT250; 13-06-24 at 07:31 PM.

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    There is always more to learn.

    Looking at these vids I'd say those cells look genuine. You can scan the QR code on them when you receive them for proof.



    This guy has had bad experience with buying cells from China using Alibaba/Aliexpress.


    & good experience. With his source proving reliable direct from China


    This guy is a little wakky, but he does some good testing of batteries & other components.



    Last edited by Tiny; 14-06-24 at 10:47 AM.
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    Hi Tiny,
    Ok. Lots to report LOL!
    I went and saw the seller in Ormeau. He's the first in your video clips. We had a good hour chat.

    Thought I'd just let everyone know, so just a quickie post.

    I'll do another post later this afternoon.

    Cheers,
    GT250.

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    Ok.

    NB: BMS Issue at the end....

    Caught up with Ernest. He's been doing the Battery/Inverter and Security cameras stuff for 5 years.
    Was happy to show me around the factory. No signage on the building - says "On purpose"!

    Everything I put in here, is from the discussion with Ernest. Might not be my view or your view! I'm just passing on information that might help anybody on Austech.

    EVE battery make: Says one of the three top makers. CATL are no1 - I believe part of Tesla's (BYD's), supplier chain.

    Now, there's Grade A - which he 'they' call Automotive Grade.
    There's Grade B - which he 'they' say is called Solar Grade. Difference is the internal resistance. He gave me the figures and (sorry can't recall), but it was in the milli 'something' range...
    The EVE 304's are A grade and the 280's are B Grade. There is a $600 price difference for the 24v pack I am looking at - but 24Ah more capacity?

    BMS Amperage Balancing:
    With the Grade A - Automotive - he was saying that as the car accelerates/decelerates etc, the Amp's change. So the BMS has to be able to charge 'whatever' cells get depleted, quickly...
    So - as basic as I can be - the greater the Amps balancing, the 'better for cell life' it is. So a 2A Balancer is good?

    BMS: On the website you will see an orange BMS. I didn't see the actual brand name, but he pronounced it 'Daily'.

    The one thing that - in my case - is a problem, is that I have a 6Kw 24v/240v Inverter/Charger, that cuts in (goes into charging mode - 50A), when my Trojans go below 21.9v (or is that 21.3v).
    The Orange Daily BMS will shut off the power from the Lipo4 battery's at 24v....
    He sells the JK 200A BMS which is configurable to go keep 'going' below 24v. I mentioned 23v and he said yes. So I am not sure if the JK BMS will go below that.
    I note Tiny's link to another BMS brand, from Muller (of which I have mentioned that brand as a maker of these Lipo4 battery's I think), looks great quality - But 250A on a 12v system??? - $350.

    In my particular case (as per drawings), I am at 600Ah. Now due to price, and Lipo4 280Ah, I am worried that 280Ah won't be enough....
    Yet Lipo4 charges quicker and has better - dumbo mode here - Has better Energy Capacity inside the 24v-28v range then the Acids batts 28v-22v....Right?


    A case (Black Plastic box), for the 24v system is $150. The cells have to be laid Horizontally to fit...! So to assemble, you cable it all up, then lay the case H, lift/angle the new made pack and slide the case onto the pack.

    For me DIY (knocking off $50 postage, as I will collect), 24v 280Ah Grade B, JK 200A BMS, cables, case etc $2350.
    The 304's Grade A with the "Daily" Deligreen BMS, cables, case etc $2900.

    From AliExpress: 300Ah, Grade A (not sure of make), with 200A BMS (BMS not sure if it allows to go below 24v), inc stainless steel case, delivered. All set up - Plug it in. $2000. Not sure about GST.
    Kit DIY form from AliExpress. 300Ah, EVE Grade A, 200A 'smart' BMS (make not known, yet), inc case, cables, bus bars etc, delivered $1800. With GST the seller offered to lower the invoice 'value'...

    Cycles: Interesting...!!
    The Grade A 304's were (from memory), 3000 cycles.
    The Grade B's 280's were 6000 cycles.

    He mentioned that there are 'new' cells coming out (I didn't ask when as we were in the middle of a topic), that can do 10,000 cycles...??

    I assume that these 'cycles' are linked to the full charge and discharge range?
    He seemed to be saying that if the Batts goto 24v to 29v then back to 24v, that is the proper way and is One (1), cycle..?

    He provides a 5yr warranty on the batteries and 3yr on the BMS.
    He showed me his 'returns' for the last 5 years, there were about ten 3.2v cells. Of which he showed five of them due to a customer wiring up the BMS wrong.

    He also said that all the suppliers out there - and I did mention that I buy things from AliExpress and have looked at the EVE's and the Complete battery packs - he said that "This Grade A stuff is crap, they all say A Grade".

    Tiny. So what do you think?

    One of your links was to Alibaba.
    The Chinese suppliers I know of are AliExpress, Alibaba and Banggood. I have used all three, but now stick with AliExpress. Saves with email confusion and I know that what arrives in the mailbox is from AliExpress or eBay.

    Whew!

    My last mention is that I am worried about my 24v PSW Inverter/Charger and its 'talking' to the JK BMS if the battery voltage goes below say 23v. Ideally, I never want the Inverter to goto Grid power - but as the weather here on the GoldCoast can be many many days of overcast days...

    I know it's about the house Wattage usage. On a normal sunny day the PL80 solar charger (house roof), shows about 300A going into the batteries. The Jaycar solar charger (Shed), has no daily total, but I have seen it at 40A in the middle of a summer's day.
    The house is drawing about 250W on average per hour with the burst of cooking at night (gas stove) - 2000W Kettle - 1000W microwave - and a (1800W Airfryer, 20mins at night).

    Anyway, as always, I hope that all this information helps everyone that visits Austech

    All good fun.
    Cheers,
    GT250.

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    Ok.
    Found a really good YouTube video that shows in very good detail the difference between the Grade A and Grade B and that Milli OHM difference in Internal Resistance...

    Oh and I forgot to add in my previous post, that - for some stupid reason - the POS terminals are Black and the NEG a Brown/Cream colour. Why on earth would the industry making these Cells do that?

    And when I visited Ernest he had some cells that didn't even have + or - on them, but some other cells did have a tiny + - Crazy!


    Last edited by GT250; 15-06-24 at 06:34 AM.

  • #33
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    The problem with your inverter charger is something you would be better off changing in it's/your setup, if possible.
    Discharging the LiFePo4 cells below 3v/cell = 24v in a 24v system will be below their recommended discharge capacity & will shorten their life dramatically. That is why most BMS are set to disconnect the discharge at 24v, to protect their life.
    With LifePo4 cells you have to rely on their SOC (state of charge), not their overall voltage, for selecting when you need your backup generator or in your case your inverter charger to switch in to charge mode. This should be able to be accomplished as an automated programming solution. Even if it requires another battery monitor or controller that can tell your inverter to charge. That could be possible with some BMS. Not sure I fully understand your complete setup.
    As it doesn't concern me, I haven't looked into this part of battery management. I have micro hydro & solar here & no possibility of grid connection, so I am truly off grid standalone power here. I have not the need for a backup generator on permanent standby. My generator can however be connected to charge the batteries, if & only if, my Micro Hydro is out of action. Rare thing that is. Sorry for straying off topic in your thread here.

    Lead Acid cells have by nature a wider voltage range from charged to discharged, loaded & unloaded, than the LifePo4 cells.
    You cannot just go on the voltage triggers as per the lead acid batteries for the lower voltage scenarios with LifePo4 cells. You will kill them.
    The same applies to higher voltages, that is why you cannot use an equalisation mode on charge for LifePo4 cells. The BMS controls the balance/equalisation of the cells instead.

    Also the SOC usage for Lead Acid is way different to LifePo4. The cycle life of both types changes due to depth of discharge. In the case of Lead Acid, you can cycle if needed to 50% of capacity for a reasonable life cycle, but not going below 80% SOC will make them live a long life & going below 50% SOC will shorten their life, especially if it's too often.
    With LifePo4, you can discharge to 20% SOC on a regular basis & get the full guaranteed cycle life out of them. Some specifications for longer life cycles say 70% discharge = 30% SOC to get the maximum life cycles out of them.
    Having the use of more of the capacity with the LifePo4 is what makes them affordable, as you don't need such a large overall capacity for your system. That is why you need less total AH of storage over the Lead Acids, but this comes at a power management/BMS/charge controller difference which has to be factored into the system. You need to know if all the components you have will work with the LifePO4 cells or are some components in need of replacement or made redundant.

    So far my shed will convert to LifePo4 easily with either 12v or 24v & my house system is also compatible; well, with some tweaks.

    The battery terminal colouring is unusual, but not a problem. Just something to be aware of & it is noted in most of the DIY build vids I've watched. Terminal polarity is easily confirmed with an electrical tester/voltmeter.

    The only problem I see with buying cells & components from China is if you get a bad cell/s, or a faulty BMS, it would cost more than it's worth to return it. Yet buying from one of the local importer stockists at least you have someone local to fall back on if you have a problem. That to me is worth paying a little more for.

    Anyway I've rambled on enough, hope it helps & not hinders.
    Cheers, Tiny
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    The information is out there; you just have to let it in."

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  • #34
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    Ok, so Victron have a system to switch via SOC, so it's definitely doable & I'm sure there are many other proprietary & DIY solutions, if your current components aren't capable.
    Will depend on how the Inverter/Charger you have is switched & if it has an external switching trigger point.
    If you want me to investigate this further I will need to know the Brand & model of Inverter/Charger you have. A copy of the user manual would be good.
    EDIT: and a complete labelled diagram of your current system layout.
    Last edited by Tiny; 15-06-24 at 04:26 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiny View Post

    So far my shed will convert to LifePo4 easily with either 12v or 24v & my house system is also compatible; well, with some tweaks.
    Ok, so my issue with the house system is that my current 240v inverter is 12V only. All other components can do 12 or 24V.
    So, I've been investigating the parallel options. Looks like it is no issue with multiple BMS.
    So if you want to parallel your 48V system for redundancy, then go ahead.

    This vid is of three battery banks in parallel with differing capacities & 3 different BMS.

    Cheers, Tiny
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    The information is out there; you just have to let it in."

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    Humm,
    Thank you for your input there Tiny.

    I have watched the same and more of the Lipo4 videos and after all that, it doesn't seem hard to put a Pack together.
    Looking at the cost (I understand the retail side), and as long as one can get the Genuine EVE battery's and a Genuine JK BSM, all should be ok.

    I will put something together about my Inverter/Charger, and I appreciate your offer to look at it.
    It cost me a LOT of money ($3500 6Kw PSW and auto 50A charger), and would be crazy to not have it and purchase another item.

    In regards to the Lipo cells going 'below' voltage, the Man above in your clip (can't find the clip now!), shows that the BMS App does allow various settings to go below.
    Goto 18:10 for the advance settings...
    Found it .

    So why would the BMS maker allow a user to go below...?
    There seems to be from my learning mind that the BMS can 'protect' the Lipo's before they are allowed to get into damage levels....?

    I will re-read your Voltage and SOC para's again.
    But I have been looking at prices and I can get - so far - Genuine EVE's 280's and JK BMS's 150A 2A delivered, 16pieces [Two 24v 280Ah packs] for about $3400. DIY. No case (but would build one, or find something to put them in).

    EDIT: Tortech (no longer sell it - typical!!), TXFHP ...
    Just had a brief squiz at it and it's seems to be able to do 48v.... My Plasmatronics PL80 can do 48as well... Humm....


    Anyway, got to go to work...

    Cheers,
    GT250.
    Last edited by GT250; 16-06-24 at 06:19 AM.

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    Ok.
    Back home.
    I popped into the shed and it looks like the Inverter/Charger is 24v only. So for now, I'm going to stick at 24v.
    I've got that 'women' on my back again... I'm trying to explain to her that it's time to move to Lithium as my Trojan supplier has gone.

    In regards to SOC. And BTW Tiny (thanks for the link to have him now in my Googles algorithm!!), I have found him pretty good - no BS! I think he's based in Sydney.
    Here, he discus's SOC and about the 20% to 80% stuff.
    NB: Whilst he makes a referral to that the 20-80 SOC stuff is for Lithium Ion and then says that PO4 is different, LiFePO4 - is still a Lithium Ion battery!

    This is where, no matter whom you see or talk to, all this Battery tech and specifications is in IMO a dark science. One can buy all the gadgets to measure SOC and V's and A's - and look at the talk about Compressing these LPO4's... OMG!!!

    Moving on; with his endeavors and the others I have seen, it looks easy peezy to make ones own LIPO4 Kit.. LOL!

    So I will start checking online for the Genuine EVE batts and JK controllers.

    As for now, I think that this topic of 'Can a normal solar controller work ok with LifePO4 battery's', has been a YES - If - your solar controller allows you to charge (as in no 30v Equalization stuff, etc), your current 12/24/48 system to the range(s), that the LifePO4 is happy with.

    For whom is watching this thread:
    Should it continue, as to when I get the batts and put it all together?
    Or let this thread end and when I get the Batts, start another - of course if anyone is interested?

    All good fun as always - not like living with the trouble and strife! Bless her heart, if you can find it...
    Explaining to her that we haven't paid an electric bill in 15years and get approx. $600pa credit from Origin, still gets her up and about me spending more money on - get this! - My TOYS!! That hurts...LOL!


    Cheers,
    GT250.

  • #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by GT250 View Post
    In regards to the Lipo cells going 'below' voltage, the Man above in your clip (can't find the clip now!), shows that the BMS App does allow various settings to go below.
    Goto 18:10 for the advance settings...
    Found it .

    So why would the BMS maker allow a user to go below...?
    There seems to be from my learning mind that the BMS can 'protect' the Lipo's before they are allowed to get into damage levels....?
    The reason here is to protect the longevity of the battery cells, yes they can go lower than 20%SOC but it reduces their life span.
    The BMS settings give you full flexibility, you can discharge the cells to 0%SOC at will, but why would you want to do that if it reduces the lifespan of your cells exponentially.

    Re: the BMS video lower SOC settings, they all do that, they will allow 100% discharge/0% SOC. But you don't or shouldn't need to go there.

    here is Ernest explaining why.


    This is the same setting in the Daly BMS


    BTW: Daly have a Parallel Module for these systems, not sure if it is needed, more research for that.

    Here it is : 12V
    24V
    48V


    Quote Originally Posted by GT250 View Post
    EDIT: Tortech (no longer sell it - typical!!), TXFHP ...
    Just had a brief squiz at it and it's seems to be able to do 48v.... My Plasmatronics PL80 can do 48as well... Humm....
    Sorry that links me to a download link page, but I don't know what model to select.
    No big deal, I think you're onto this, but I'm still interested in it's specs & settings.
    Cheers.
    Last edited by Tiny; 16-06-24 at 05:36 PM.
    Cheers, Tiny
    "You can lead a person to knowledge, but you can't make them think? If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem.
    The information is out there; you just have to let it in."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiny View Post
    T

    Sorry that links me to a download link page, but I don't know what model to select.
    No big deal, I think you're onto this, but I'm still interested in it's specs & settings.
    Cheers.
    Will email it to you...

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