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Thread: Slippery slope to police state

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    Default Slippery slope to police state

    Hi All

    I have been watching whats been happening in Alice Springs and It seems to me like the curfew across everyone after 10pm seems to be a real dangerous step towards a police state. I understand there is a youth crime issue there and a curfew on people under the age of lets say 20 but it seems an unreasonable overreach for the curfew to be introduced across all citizens for the actions of a minority.

    It also begs the question what the real justification of this curfew is? what is it the police don't want people to see them do? it strikes me as suspicious that they are trying to clear out everyone including the groups of people who have caused no issues.
    I find the introduction of unilateral laws that allow the police to make these types of decisions to be problematic and I am very disappointed at the labor government for introducing such a law without checks and balances being put in place to prevent such an abuse of power.

    At a minimum there should be a requirement for a court of law to be involved in the process. like a warrant such an action should be required to be signed off by an impartial JP or a court of law. having the police decide that they are going to impose a curfew and then just enact it is extremely dangerous.
    Last edited by bazzy; 09-07-24 at 03:14 PM.

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    from what i read is that 4 off duty police were bashed by about 20 youth's on the weekend
    and that is why they have bought it back in.
    Last edited by fandtm666; 09-07-24 at 05:53 PM.
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    I don't see this curfew that way at all. The problem stems from two governments IMO. The federal coalition and the NT ALP. The coalition allowed the federal liquor laws to lapse based upon the NT ALP government promising to enact the same sort of legislation itself. Once they had control the NT government listened to the left wing hand wringing "experts" (as they always do, just like the the refugee situation) and went back on their word and didn't enact liquor laws.

    The whole place exploded and now they are hard pressed to put the genie back in the bottle. I don't see that they have a choice now.

    I may have oversimplified the situation or got it wrong, so anyone feel free to correct me....
    The fact that there's a highway to hell and a stairway to heaven says a lot about the anticipated traffic flow.

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    Quote Originally Posted by enf View Post
    I don't see this curfew that way at all. The problem stems from two governments IMO. The federal coalition and the NT ALP. The coalition allowed the federal liquor laws to lapse based upon the NT ALP government promising to enact the same sort of legislation itself. Once they had control the NT government listened to the left wing hand wringing "experts" (as they always do, just like the the refugee situation) and went back on their word and didn't enact liquor laws.

    The whole place exploded and now they are hard pressed to put the genie back in the bottle. I don't see that they have a choice now.

    I may have oversimplified the situation or got it wrong, so anyone feel free to correct me....
    The problem I have with this is not so much that there is a curfew but rather that the police can arbitrarily enact one without oversight. all they need to do is "deem" that it is needed and then poof the whole place is locked down. Every time police are given this type of power without any mechanism to for oversight is a dangerous situation.

    Additionally i dont see why the majority should be punished for the actions of the minority, it has already been ascertained that the police where injured by youth, so why extend the curfew to everyone? yes there are a few bad actors fair enough but immagine if this happened to any of our other cities, there is a fair bit of crime on the gold coast, in Ipswich etc would we accept the QPS being given unilateral power to impose a curfew without checks and balances being in place. I can garentee you there would be hell to pay if they did.

    I mean just look at how people reacted to the lockdowns and the aftermath of legal battles that have happened since where fines imposed during that time are being challenged based on their violating basic human rights. The reality is such a curfew does the same thing. it imposes an unreasonable restriction on an individuals freedoms and not everyone in Allice Springs behave criminally.

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    I can see what you ae saying so give me an idea of how you would handle the current situation.
    I'm sure there are many who would like a solution, esspecially those that live in these towns.

    This is not the only place in Australia at the moment that has this issue

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    Quote Originally Posted by bazzy View Post
    The problem I have with this is not so much that there is a curfew but rather that the police can arbitrarily enact one without oversight. all they need to do is "deem" that it is needed and then poof the whole place is locked down. Every time police are given this type of power without any mechanism to for oversight is a dangerous situation.

    Additionally i dont see why the majority should be punished for the actions of the minority, it has already been ascertained that the police where injured by youth, so why extend the curfew to everyone? yes there are a few bad actors fair enough but immagine if this happened to any of our other cities, there is a fair bit of crime on the gold coast, in Ipswich etc would we accept the QPS being given unilateral power to impose a curfew without checks and balances being in place. I can garentee you there would be hell to pay if they did.

    I mean just look at how people reacted to the lockdowns and the aftermath of legal battles that have happened since where fines imposed during that time are being challenged based on their violating basic human rights. The reality is such a curfew does the same thing. it imposes an unreasonable restriction on an individuals freedoms and not everyone in Allice Springs behave criminally.
    Nah...sorry. The majority voted for the government that caused the problem, and therefore are subject to some consequences. The same obviously for the government itself. In situations such as this you may not have TIME to see a magistrate before the whole town goes up in flames and people are dead.

    There are no absolutes here. To expect them is just silly IMO.
    The fact that there's a highway to hell and a stairway to heaven says a lot about the anticipated traffic flow.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bazzy View Post
    Additionally i dont see why the majority should be punished for the actions of the minority, it has already been ascertained that the police where injured by youth, so why extend the curfew to everyone? yes there are a few bad actors fair enough but immagine if this happened to any of our other cities, there is a fair bit of crime on the gold coast, in Ipswich etc would we accept the QPS being given unilateral power to impose a curfew without checks and balances being in place. I can garentee you there would be hell to pay if they did.
    The curfew affects about 4 city blocks between the highway and the river, and some connected parkland - itís not the Ďmajorityí being punished by any means.

    And not just young people offending. A quick scan of relevant news articles shows people in the their 20ís and 30ís have been arrested or are wanted for related offences since the weekend.

    The same legislative ability for police to impose curfews/etc is in place in NSW, and has been for decades. Donít know about QLD, but itís certainly not unique to the NT.

    There should absolutely be a review of the effectiveness of the curfew to determine its viability for future use, but in the interim I see no issue (and neither did the NT Government) with the police having no the ability to enact snap curfews should the requirements the under the legislation be met.

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    Quote Originally Posted by peteramjet View Post
    The curfew affects about 4 city blocks between the highway and the river, and some connected parkland - itís not the Ďmajorityí being punished by any means.

    And not just young people offending. A quick scan of relevant news articles shows people in the their 20ís and 30ís have been arrested or are wanted for related offences since the weekend.

    The same legislative ability for police to impose curfews/etc is in place in NSW, and has been for decades. Donít know about QLD, but itís certainly not unique to the NT.

    There should absolutely be a review of the effectiveness of the curfew to determine its viability for future use, but in the interim I see no issue (and neither did the NT Government) with the police having no the ability to enact snap curfews should the requirements the under the legislation be met.
    OK so lets take that one step further. lets say hypothetically we grant the police the ability to sign off their own warrants? that would make law enforcement a lot more streamline wouldn't it? currently police have to get the warrens signed off by a JP or in a court. what about if we remove that requirement? that seems to be far less overreaching than a snap curfew imposed without the same checks and ballences. again I say i have no issue with the police putting in place a curfew what i have an issue with is the police having exclusive powers to do that. It would take a very small amount of effort and time for the police to contact a JP and give the scenario get approval from an independent trusted member of the public to enact this power, and by doing so would cut off any issue of this being misused.

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    Default Slipery slope to police state

    Quote Originally Posted by bazzy View Post
    OK so lets take that one step further. lets say hypothetically we grant the police the ability to sign off their own warrants? that would make law enforcement a lot more streamline wouldn't it? currently police have to get the warrens signed off by a JP or in a court. what about if we remove that requirement? that seems to be far less overreaching than a snap curfew imposed without the same checks and ballences. again I say i have no issue with the police putting in place a curfew what i have an issue with is the police having exclusive powers to do that. It would take a very small amount of effort and time for the police to contact a JP and give the scenario get approval from an independent trusted member of the public to enact this power, and by doing so would cut off any issue of this being misused.
    Police in some states can already sign off their own warrants. SA is one state, pretty sure Vic is too. Regardless, legislation already exists to allow police in all states to do things like enter properties, or search people, or arrest people or stop people from accessing areas without court issued warrants - some require exigent circumstances, some donít.

    And I think you misunderstand what JPís do, as it does vary between states. In NT, JPís witnesses declarations. That about it. They have no legal qualifications. A JP in the NT - who likely has no proper understanding of the legislation that enables police to enact these curfews - would not be in any position to approve/decline such a request, or have any ability to oversee any potential misuse of power.

    Edit: FYI, Iím a JP in NSW, and as in the NT we have no judicial power here - that (thankfully) was taken away a very long time ago and handed back to the courts and registrars. Our role is to witness declarations and issue oaths to that effect, not to ensure the police or others are operating in compliance with criminal legislation.
    Last edited by peteramjet; 10-07-24 at 12:26 AM.

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    From yesterdays Australian............

    The fact that there's a highway to hell and a stairway to heaven says a lot about the anticipated traffic flow.

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    Bazzy, you should spend a few nights in Alice CBD, or Darwin CBD, or Tennant Creek CBD - anywhere alcohol is for sale and see how individuals freedoms work for those who simply have no care for assimilation into society. Then go and see how dry communities fair - I think you will see a difference. Up here in the NT we are having a massive Youth Crime, Adult Crime, General crime spree - it's not reported to the media because they care more about the chop chop in Melbourne, then the 3rd world country attached to Australia. The slippery slope was to allow mobs access to grog....... but lets not mention that........

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    I was in Alice on the weekend. I understand the issues that the poor coppers are having. Take away alcohol sales are restricted to two or three hours a day. The cops are tasked with monitoring the bottle shops to ensure that the crowd (predominately [insert the race of your imagination here]) behaves. There are restrictions on the type and qty of booze available,yet they still have troubles keeping the peace! Much as it is annoying, I feel sorry for the police, they have to be nursemaids for a lot of itinerants who inhabit the town.

    We had a stall at the Alice Springs Show and sitting there watching the crowd wandering around, the population that was in the minority there were those of the lighter coloured variety. The Darker coloured people, and the problematic ones, were not all native to Australia, either. Racist? Maybe. Factual - yes!
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    Quote Originally Posted by peteramjet View Post
    And I think you misunderstand what JPís do, as it does vary between states. In NT, JPís witnesses declarations. That about it. They have no legal qualifications. A JP in the NT - who likely has no proper understanding of the legislation that enables police to enact these curfews - would not be in any position to approve/decline such a request, or have any ability to oversee any potential misuse of power.

    Edit: FYI, Iím a JP in NSW, and as in the NT we have no judicial power here - that (thankfully) was taken away a very long time ago and handed back to the courts and registrars. Our role is to witness declarations and issue oaths to that effect, not to ensure the police or others are operating in compliance with criminal legislation.
    Yeah im very well aware what JPs do and there reason for being. and perhaps in NSW you dont have that power but in most states they absolutely can sign off on search warrents and what they are looking for is that the police have reasonable grounds to do it.


    here is the relevant extract from that


    The general principle is that a court issues warrants, however courts
    are not open all hours, and therefore Justices of the Peace (Qualified) have the power to issue a search
    warrant. This is not a duty to be taken lightly Ė in fact, the issue of warrants by Justices is one of the
    more controversial powers that they possess and perhaps the most serious of all judicial duties.
    A JP(Qual) may issue a search warrant only if satisfied there are reasonable grounds for suspecting
    evidence of the commission of an offence or confiscation related evidence:
    x is at the place; or
    x is likely to be taken to the place within the next 72 hours.

    In NT JPs also can issue search warrents


    ACT seems to be the same


    Tasmania is the same


    Western Australia


    Looks like you guys are the odd ones out. probably why your cops are so corrupt and can do things like kill old ladies on their walking frames and argue they where right to do it.

    Quote Originally Posted by freakee1 View Post
    Bazzy, you should spend a few nights in Alice CBD, or Darwin CBD, or Tennant Creek CBD - anywhere alcohol is for sale and see how individuals freedoms work for those who simply have no care for assimilation into society. Then go and see how dry communities fair - I think you will see a difference. Up here in the NT we are having a massive Youth Crime, Adult Crime, General crime spree - it's not reported to the media because they care more about the chop chop in Melbourne, then the 3rd world country attached to Australia. The slippery slope was to allow mobs access to grog....... but lets not mention that........

    f
    There seems to be a misconception here that I haven't been to Allice Springs or the northern Territory, I have. many times. I have family that live there. I am very well aware of the issues in that community caused by drugs and alcohol use. That however shouldn't justify an ends justify the means attitude towards legislation that is designed to address it. To have a Curfew that has no Judicial oversight into its implementation is asking to be abused. It doesn't take much to see that. It would not make the laws any less potent or effective for the police force to engage with a JP to get this signed off before a curfew is put into effect. Bad decisions get made in the heat of the moment and that's why it is critical that these checks and balances exist.
    Last edited by bazzy; 10-07-24 at 11:06 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bazzy View Post
    ..............................Bad decisions get made in the heat of the moment and that's why it is critical that these checks and balances exist.
    They do unfortunately. And the law has means in place to deal with that. Or it should.

    Again, there are no absolutes. And whilst I see instances of police overstepping the mark regularly, expecting them to get a warrant to stop a drunken riot will lead to nothing but delayed responses, violent damage to property, assault and injury to people (many this innocent majority you go on about), and most likely death.

    And while drunken violent behaviour isn't a government creation, the circumstances and hand wringing decisions that allowed this state of affairs to fester and flourish in Alice Springs and other places IS.
    The fact that there's a highway to hell and a stairway to heaven says a lot about the anticipated traffic flow.

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    Quote Originally Posted by enf View Post
    They do unfortunately. And the law has means in place to deal with that. Or it should.

    Again, there are no absolutes. And whilst I see instances of police overstepping the mark regularly, expecting them to get a warrant to stop a drunken riot will lead to nothing but delayed responses, violent damage to property, assault and injury to people (many this innocent majority you go on about), and most likely death.

    And while drunken violent behavior isn't a government creation, the circumstances and hand wringing decisions that allowed this state of affairs to fester and flourish in Alice Springs and other places IS.
    im not saying that they should have a warrant to do every part of their job. what i am saying is that to impose a curfew should have that requirement. its not like them imposing the curfew will magically make the drunken riot evaporate. the police would break up the violence then impose a curfew, not the other way around. so to implement that would have little to no impact on the effectiveness of such measures.

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    here's a realistic snapshot of Alice Springs at the moment.......

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    We'll see what happens now....curfew ceases..

    The fact that there's a highway to hell and a stairway to heaven says a lot about the anticipated traffic flow.

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    ....10cc ..."Load up, load up, load up.. the rubber bullets"....

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    Bring back the stocks. Free rotten fruit for the public..........
    I'm out of my mind, but feel free to leave a message...

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