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Thread: Who want's an Alternative Energy Sub Forum.

  1. #121
    Senior Member z80's Avatar
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    maybe you and I need our own forum joey?



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    Quote Originally Posted by z80 View Post
    I am interested in the Amps you were producing Joey...since the voltage remains fairly constant with solar panels.

    They usually quote open circuit voltage and short circuit current with panels.

    So hence my practical findings.

    In your case it's the total power production that is important.

    Your observation at a particular point in the day is not to be extrapollated on a full day hourly basis since you dont have a solar tracker.

    For me i need 48 kw a day worst case.

    So I need to produce 4.8 kw an hour.

    The simple rule is that exactly 4.8kw of panels doesn't translate into 4.8kw of generation...regardless of what the sun,reasons,losses etc are...

    My formula, in my case, is add about 30% more and it works out practically, not ideally or mathematically to a sales model...

    The other aspect is that I am charging batteries with dynamic loads according to battery state...yours is a constant load (infinite).

    Run your batteries low and watch your output..


    Pumping onto the grid as you are means they got this thing called RMS, when they add up what you are producing which you will find will lower the amount to 0.7071 of what your peak power production is..
    The current is 8.3amps @ 300VDC , Maximum export current @ 240VAC is 10.4Amps , The E-Power scale on the inverter display only shows true Exported power to the grid after loses have been taken into account , the Sunnyboys do this automatically .
    The power meter in the meter box shows exactly the same figures exported as the inverter shows.

    I am still confused why you are not getting rated output regardless of load at any stage ? have you actually tried putting a current shunt meter directly across a panel ?
    It's doesn't matter what the load is , for instance if I put a bar heater across the output of panels they will still be producing the same amount of usable current , sure the voltage will drop but at the same time the current increases still giving you the same amount in watts.
    A panels rating isnt based on an open circuit with no load , an 80 watt panel is not producing any watts if there is no load attached , just an open circuit voltage.
    have you got a spec sheet on your panels I am really curious

    According to my calculations you would need 8500W of panels to guarantee 48KW per day all year round , how much have you got now ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by z80 View Post
    maybe you and I need our own forum joey?
    yeah bring it on

  • #124
    Senior Member z80's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joey View Post
    The current is 8.3amps @ 300VDC , Maximum export current @ 240VAC is 10.4Amps , The E-Power scale on the inverter display only shows true Exported power to the grid after loses have been taken into account , the Sunnyboys do this automatically .
    The power meter in the meter box shows exactly the same figures exported as the inverter shows.?
    that may be the figure as mentioned earlier, in the optimum part of the day, but not for all hours of the day unless you are tracking the sun.
    and as long as your batteries are fully charged and you are presented with the impedance of the grid and not the batteries.


    Quote Originally Posted by Joey View Post
    I am still confused why you are not getting rated output regardless of load at any stage ??
    maximum power transfer occurs, (Thevenin's)when the impedance of the load matches the internal resistance of the cell.

    Quote Originally Posted by Joey View Post
    have you actually tried putting a current shunt meter directly across a panel ?
    It's doesn't matter what the load is , for instance if I put a bar heater across the output of panels they will still be producing the same amount of usable current , sure the voltage will drop but at the same time the current increases still giving you the same amount in watts.?
    If you neglect the internal resistance of the array then you also neglect the losses due to heat in the array, not external heat, heat generated due to the internal resistances.

    Quote Originally Posted by Joey View Post
    A panels rating isnt based on an open circuit with no load , an 80 watt panel is not producing any watts if there is no load attached , just an open circuit voltage.?

    They take the open circuit voltage, and the short circuit current and multiply to arrive at the maximum power rating of the panel.

    rarely does the load equal the impedance of the array.

    Quote Originally Posted by Joey View Post
    have you got a spec sheet on your panels I am really curious?
    sunnex 85 watters mate....all over the net...

    Quote Originally Posted by Joey View Post
    According to my calculations you would need 8500W of panels to guarantee 48KW per day all year round , how much have you got now ?
    44 panels in my array atm.

    I am mitigating my power use in Summer, thats when I need the desal.
    No need in winter, cost benefit is reduced considerably.

    So the strategy is to use the power generated in winter to offset the power needed in summer nights.
    Summer days ...nothing pumped on the grid...all used to the desal.

    So only need half the panels for the net 48kw for half the year....

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    Junior Member flicker's Avatar
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    Default Good news?

    Solar panel glut expected in 2009: Suntech
    Mon Dec 8, 2008 10:52am EST



    By Gerard Wynn and Gabriela Baczynska

    POZNAN, Poland (Reuters) - The solar power sector will produce an over supply of solar panels in 2009, said Zhengrong Shi, chief executive of the world's biggest module manufacturer Suntech.

    "We expect definitely an over supply of modules next year," he told Reuters in an interview, adding Suntech expected its euro-denominated prices to fall by 10-15 percent next year, by 25-30 percent in dollars, compared to the third quarter of 2008.

    "The financial crisis has accelerated that situation," Shi said. The entire sector could halve the cost of solar power before 2012, he added, assuming companies cooperated on cutting prices across the supply chain.

    Low-carbon solar photovolataic (PV) power is much more expensive than fossil fuel alternatives and provides a tiny fraction of the world's electricity. The sector is under pressure to cut costs to prove it can scale up.

    "Definitely it's do-able," Shi said, referring to a goal of cutting the cost of solar-powered electricity before 2012 to about 16 euro cents per kilowatt hour, compared to a guaranteed solar power price in much of Europe now of about 30 cents.

    "We can't do it on our own. The whole industry has to contribute, can achieve it. Otherwise the market will be limited, governments will get impatient."

    Suntech makes solar panels from highly purified silicon. A generally less efficient but cheaper solar PV alternative is called thin film, made from dyes and other materials, and that sector is cutting prices, too.

    "We haven't cut prices of our solar panels as they are already priced below the market but others have been lowering their prices visibly over the last months," said Mike Ahearn, chief executive of First Solar, a thin-film manufacturer.

    Solar power stocks have been battered in recent months on concerns that tight credit markets could hurt financing of large projects. Suntech shares have been down by about half in the past calendar month and First Solar about a fifth.

    (Reporting by Gerard Wynn and Gabriela Baczynska; editing by James Jukwey)

    regards flicker.

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    Is there an alternate energy forum yet?

    Anyway I noticed this today:

    $3893 for a 1.05Kw system.

    On their website they say the number of full sun hours per day in north Queensland is 6-7. Is this averaged across the year?

    Does anyone know how many kWhs a 1Kw system will generate on average over a year in mid to north Queensland?

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    Quote Originally Posted by PostScriptum View Post
    Is there an alternate energy forum yet?

    Anyway I noticed this today:

    $3893 for a 1.05Kw system.

    On their website they say the number of full sun hours per day in north Queensland is 6-7. Is this averaged across the year?

    Does anyone know how many kWhs a 1Kw system will generate on average over a year in mid to north Queensland?
    That will give you about 1850KW per year if you are near Mackay , between 4 and 7KW per day.

    If you read the fine print this price is assuming the $8000 Gov rebate is approved and your REC's are assigned to infinitysolar and they give you $900 for them.

    Not sure how many unit / KW's you use now but this will give you about 5KW on average per day , dont know Qland power pricing per unit but if we say 15cents per unit , you will save 75cents per day.

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    Senior Member z80's Avatar
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    I know what i would do Joey...

    I would rather use all the power myself than sell it so cheap to a provider.

    Just run a blow heater in the paddock for a few hours if you make too much green power...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Joey View Post
    If you read the fine print this price is assuming the $8000 Gov rebate is approved and your REC's are assigned to infinitysolar and they give you $900 for them.
    I'm not sure what you're saying here could you dumb that down a bit?

    Quote Originally Posted by Joey View Post
    Not sure how many unit / KW's you use now but this will give you about 5KW on average per day , dont know Qland power pricing per unit but if we say 15cents per unit , you will save 75cents per day.
    16.29c is the QLD tariff I believe, and according to a government website QLD pays 44c per kWh fed back.

    I'm considering starting off with a small standalone setup first on the shed like a 200w system with batteries on about a $1000 budget. I'm looking at Oatley at the moment. EDIT: it's 100w not 200. Might be better to get the rebate and be done with it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by z80 View Post
    I know what i would do Joey...

    I would rather use all the power myself than sell it so cheap to a provider.

    Just run a blow heater in the paddock for a few hours if you make too much green power...
    A blow heater ! way to efficient

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    Quote Originally Posted by PostScriptum View Post
    I'm not sure what you're saying here could you dumb that down a bit?
    Well as you have probably seen if you have been looking at even small setups this stuff isnt cheap ,
    The real price of the 1.05KW system they are quoting is $12793.00
    The maximum rebate available is capped at $8000.00 which is what you will get for a 1.05KW system from the Government.
    When you install a system you get REC certificates ( Renewable Energy Certificates ) for having a renewable energy source , the price varies between about $40 and $48 per 50Watts , average is about about $900 for 1KW which assign over to the installer , retailer or private Rec's broker.

    So assuming you assign these over to your installer and the government rebate is approved that is $8900 off the total so you pay the $3893 difference.

    A lot of people see the advertised price and think Wow thats cheap for a 1KW system ! But in reality is about the going price while the rebate last's .
    It is set to change soon , it was means tested so if you earned over 100K you weren't eligible , now the means testing has been dropped and rebate has been reduced and it is also not paid to you in a lump sum anymore.
    The full details are not clear yet.

    Of course this is a one of rebate , so if you wanted to expand your system it would be at the full price , so basically $3893.00 for the first KW and $12793.00 for the next and so on.
    Also while you may be able to purchase all the parts to make your own 1KW system cheaper than $12793.00 , you are not eligible for the rebate if not installed , designed and signed off by a accredited installer and electrician.

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    how long is the rebate going to be around for do you reckon?

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    Quote Originally Posted by PostScriptum View Post
    how long is the rebate going to be around for do you reckon?
    I think it will be around for about 2 months

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    well I'm sold. I'm hungry for that rebate.

  • #135
    Junior Member Bluedog's Avatar
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    Greetings again Z80.

    Here we have been off grid since 1994 and moved in permanently at the start of 2000. Our house never has blackouts and we always have plenty of reserve.
    Just a note about panel degradation; with age you will get failures in your panels. I found 3 recently and after a couple of months they were replaced by BP after being checked by RFI industries in Sydney. Hang onto your dockets.Put a clamp multimeter on the cable from each bank of panels on the roof, then walk along with a towel or your T shirt or hat and blank out each panel and see if the current drops. The blocking diodes are a regular source of problems as they seem to overheat and fail every 3 or 4 years.

    Your initial setup with the pl60 and sa21 is exactly what we have here running the house, with the addition of a 12v 1400ah circuit to run refrigeration and the amateur radio gear.
    PL regulators are really badly noisy and make a racket on HF.
    The main battery banks were flooded cell nicads at 500ah, but recently upgraded to 1500ah lead acid's. The main system has 1.2kw of panels and the 12v circuit about 1kw. the panels drop a lot in output after 10-15 years.

    Its all working well here, but as you said , those wattage measurements dont reflect real-world performance as they are measured in a dark room with a flash bulb setup. Degradation from temperature and age make a huge difference
    73's from the bush
    member. Austech dog squad: if it can be fixed the dogs will sniff it out

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluedog View Post
    Greetings again Z80.

    Here we have been off grid since 1994 and moved in permanently at the start of 2000. Our house never has blackouts and we always have plenty of reserve.
    Just a note about panel degradation; with age you will get failures in your panels. I found 3 recently and after a couple of months they were replaced by BP after being checked by RFI industries in Sydney. Hang onto your dockets.Put a clamp multimeter on the cable from each bank of panels on the roof, then walk along with a towel or your T shirt or hat and blank out each panel and see if the current drops. The blocking diodes are a regular source of problems as they seem to overheat and fail every 3 or 4 years.

    Your initial setup with the pl60 and sa21 is exactly what we have here running the house, with the addition of a 12v 1400ah circuit to run refrigeration and the amateur radio gear.
    PL regulators are really badly noisy and make a racket on HF.
    The main battery banks were flooded cell nicads at 500ah, but recently upgraded to 1500ah lead acid's. The main system has 1.2kw of panels and the 12v circuit about 1kw. the panels drop a lot in output after 10-15 years.

    Its all working well here, but as you said , those wattage measurements dont reflect real-world performance as they are measured in a dark room with a flash bulb setup. Degradation from temperature and age make a huge difference
    73's from the bush
    Always great to hear from people who are using solar long term because you have obviously had to maintain power through all types of conditions over the years.
    Have you got any figures on Daily output from the 1.2KW of panels ? Also really interested how your batteries performed ? were the nicads used from first setup 10-15years ago ? how did you make the decission to go flooded lead acid ? what type are they ?
    Now that you have the larger bank have you got an idea on average SOC and obviously now the DOD is will be more realistic and less stressful on the batteries.

    Sorry for so many questions but this is always fascinating .

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluedog View Post
    Greetings again Z80.

    Here we have been off grid since 1994 and moved in permanently at the start of 2000. Our house never has blackouts and we always have plenty of reserve.
    Just a note about panel degradation; with age you will get failures in your panels. I found 3 recently and after a couple of months they were replaced by BP after being checked by RFI industries in Sydney. Hang onto your dockets.Put a clamp multimeter on the cable from each bank of panels on the roof, then walk along with a towel or your T shirt or hat and blank out each panel and see if the current drops. The blocking diodes are a regular source of problems as they seem to overheat and fail every 3 or 4 years.

    Your initial setup with the pl60 and sa21 is exactly what we have here running the house, with the addition of a 12v 1400ah circuit to run refrigeration and the amateur radio gear.
    PL regulators are really badly noisy and make a racket on HF.
    The main battery banks were flooded cell nicads at 500ah, but recently upgraded to 1500ah lead acid's. The main system has 1.2kw of panels and the 12v circuit about 1kw. the panels drop a lot in output after 10-15 years.

    Its all working well here, but as you said , those wattage measurements dont reflect real-world performance as they are measured in a dark room with a flash bulb setup. Degradation from temperature and age make a huge difference
    73's from the bush
    The over voltage diodes in the panels themselves are commonly available Schottky diodes that cost about 30 cents each, I'm sure freight is more expensive. And the bigger stud type diodes used in regulators are also common diodes. I've replaced a fair few of both during the last seven years, and while you can do some repairs to damaged panels I wasn't allowed to at work for reliability reasons. A few mates ended up with electric fence battery chargers and camping battery systems as a result of that.
    Last edited by Redwight; 11-01-09 at 08:30 PM. Reason: Karnt Speil

  • #138
    Junior Member Bluedog's Avatar
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    Hi Joey, the nicads worked well as a small system running a house with refrigeration , plc lights, tv, dvd, radios etc.
    As for the lead acids ; we were offered these huge batteries cheap, they weight about a quarter of a ton each and took a lot of effort to install into the battery compartments with just me and the wife, i had to make up a second block for them and the 12v circuit batteries. They are 10 years old and should go for another 20 years if we treat them carefully.
    the reason i pulled the nicads was they needed a top-up and when i added water their sg was bad. under 1250 means trouble for nicads. i have one in the shed that went short circuit. drained it, thumped it, refilled with fresh alkali boosted it , nope its stuffed.
    along came a neighbour with a source of huge ex-tollstra batts, so we went with them.
    We also installed an extra kilowatt of panels recently to up the power input
    Trash has been out here and knows how it all works well.
    73's
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  • #139
    Junior Member Bluedog's Avatar
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    regarding measurments of power input and output, the selectronics inverter computer does a good job there,
    when the PL60 regulator go into float mode we check the display on the selectronics inverter which says its at 100%. its easy to hear when the PL60 floats, its rf noisy.
    usually the system is in float before lunch time. cloudy days take a bit longer, and a week of clouds and rain mean no tv of an evening. we run sat internet, all the usual stuff but nothing stupid like a 2kw electric kettle or toaster, no plasma tv and definately no aircon! we (as humans) have survived for many tens of thousands of years without aircon and we see no need for it.
    we have a microwave oven which is used when necessary, and 1.2kw pump to refill the house water tank weekly.
    73's
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  • #140
    Senior Member z80's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluedog View Post
    ... we run sat internet, all the usual stuff but nothing stupid like a 2kw electric kettle or toaster, no plasma tv and definately no aircon! we (as humans) have survived for many tens of thousands of years without aircon and we see no need for it.
    we have a microwave oven which is used when necessary, and 1.2kw pump to refill the house water tank weekly.
    73's

    g'day Bluedog.

    My setup was specifically to test the viability of a 100% Solar powered water desalination idea.

    As a consequence of the brute power requirement I am able to power anything that one could do from the Grid.

    I have often questioned the long term cost benefits of custom appliances that run say off 1`2/24 volts, versus the standard 240v appliances.

    I suspect long term it is cheaper to just buy more panels and be done with it...

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