Phoenix NDS3

**Fernbay** · 07-12-08, 09:41 AM

Just something I stumbled across that I thought others might find interesting

**OSIRUS** · 08-12-08, 07:31 PM

Interesting.....has anyone built one.....or know what it is capable of

**allover** · 08-12-08, 07:43 PM

Fernbay
could not open link, note it has no reads!

**garryk** · 18-01-09, 11:35 AM

There's a small typo in the link. Try:

It's just a copy of the picture Fernbay has posted in the body of his message, anyway.

**z80** · 18-01-09, 11:46 AM

I look, but can't see anything obviously revolutionary...???

**Stannymt** · 20-01-09, 06:35 PM

apparently this mod would have saved my €1000 italian n!d*s v3 card

when i put it in a normal 5v phoenix it fried immediately

i guess that's a 3.3v zener with a 47ohm current limiting resistor

**z80** · 20-01-09, 06:43 PM

Originally Posted by Stannymt

apparently this mod would have saved my €1000 italian n!d*s v3 card

when i put it in a normal 5v phoenix it fried immediately

i guess that's a 3.3v zener with a 47ohm current limiting resistor

you could be right...those two components values are un marked.

**mickc** · 20-01-09, 06:53 PM

they are marked or has fernbay just done that?

**Stannymt** · 22-01-09, 07:26 AM

I am still worried about this mod....with that 3.3v zener the VCC on the card will drop to about 3.3v thanks to the 47ohm resitor...what is worrying me is the rest of the components. has anyone built and tested this for a few days?

it's already proving a hassle getting the card replaced, it has no sign of burning, it burnt in seconds on a normal phoenix ! there is still a chance SLY get suspicous and don't change it at all

even changed i will not be happy to experiment on it so have to be sure

anyone had any experience with these cards and readers?

**Stannymt** · 22-01-09, 01:11 PM

ok while studying this further i am concluding the following notable differences to normal phoenix readers:

card pin1 (VCC) is supplied via a 47ohm resistor to 5v, this is regulated to 3.3v with a zener diode

card pin2 (RST) is connected like normal pheonix via max232 to the RS232 RTS line

card pin3 (CLK) is fed from the 3.57mhz crystal oscillator

card pin4 NC

card pin 5 GROUND

card pin6 NC

card pin7 (I/O) as normal pheonix..txd from rs232 comes in via max232 through 74ls07 buffer and on to the chip. this is pulled up by 22k to 5v. also goes to rs232 RXD via max232.

card pin8 NC

now this is where it gets interesting

card pin 9 is pulled to ground with 47kohms and connects to rs232 DCD line via max232

card pin 10 connects to 5v !

I know most cards from this provider have always have more than the standard 8 pins but are the extra pin 9 and 10 really needed?

what is their actual function?

should we risk also putting 5v across this card?

does newcs actually read the DCD line ?

do all the new cards actually have the full 10pins and do the original boxes have them also?

also what about pin positioning? are they in the same positions as normal cards ? what about the extra 2? i think we should do some investigations on this.

I will make a picture of the chip and post it here to compare and also see which pins contact a normal 8pin slot and how as if the chip positioning is different ( i noticed an old blue card like this) you could easily get vcc in the wrong place....what worries me most is the 5v line not the 3.3v line as this is sort of current limited

time permitting i will open an old box and see the connections on the reader. cannot really open the newbox as till under warrenty but maybe i find an old external pic card or season so i read what voltages are going to all the pins....heck screw the warrenty...better save the card then the box!!

any other views on this so no one unnecessarily burns any more expensive cards

also what current do these cards actually draw from vcc?

can we trust the card just on a zener diode ? maybe worth putting an lm317 limited to about 3.7v in there also just incase ?

**Stannymt** · 22-01-09, 02:14 PM

looking at

my S italian card has a C printing next to the chip....is this the provider's version of is it actually ISO7816 type C i.e. 1.8v ?

also which type would normal gammas fall under A or B ?

**gw1** · 27-01-09, 11:37 AM

The 3.3V zener shows the intent of the design was to support 3.3V cards. However it's only a partial solution.

Since the MAX232 is still powered by 5V (pin 16) its output pin 12 will drive 5V onto card /RESET (pin 2). That will cause current flow through internal protection diode from card pin 2 to pin 1 and out into capacitor C1. If you're lucky the MAX232 may perform some current limiting for you, but it's not healthy for the card.
Similarly because U4 is also powered by 5V (pin 14, not shown but by implication it's connected to +5V) the clock signal on U4 pin 2 drives a 5V swing signal onto card pin 3. At the very least a current limiting resistor of some kind should be in series with card pin 3. I'd suggest about 1.5K to limit the peak current to about 1mA. If you do, keep capacitor C10 on the U4 side of the resistor so that slew rate doesn't suffer.
The pullup resistor R4 ideally ought to go to +3.3V (card pin 1) rather than +5V. It's not critical though because the current sinking into card I/O pin 7 is less than 0.1mA and only when the card is transmitting data. The MAX232 won't be very happy about pin 10 sitting at half mast but it should survive.
Resistor R3 value is a tad high. Ideally to avoid contention with an internal pullup on U2 pin 11 I'd suggest making R3 around 4K7.

IMO a better solution would be to replace the 7805 with a 3.3V regulator, replace the MAX232 with a MAX3232, and get rid of the zener/R/C on the card VCC. You should also consider using a 74HCU04 instead of 74HC04 as it'll oscillate more reliably, especially at the lower voltage.

If you suspect your card was designed for 1.8V then you should check the ATR - it should tell you. People writing card firmware should always give an ATR that accurately reflects their card hardware. Unfortunately if you're dealing with dodgy pirate software of unknown origin there's no guarantee that's the case: not all programmers do their homework when it comes to the hardware they use.

The only way to know for sure is to have the manufacturer data sheet. If your card supplier can't or won't tell you the brand and part number of the card you're buying then you're potentially getting a lemon. How do you know you're not being ripped off?

I would have expected most full-size smartcards nowadays to still use 5V or 3.3V, especially those aimed at general purpose application market. After all there are HUGE numbers of products out in the market using TDA8004 which can ONLY power cards at 5V no matter what the ATR says. The 1.8V cards would mainly be the smaller ones for use in mobile phones, I would have thought.

**Stannymt** · 02-02-09, 05:54 PM

have tested normal homemade pheonix with a whitey connected to current limited variable PSU

reader + card draw 100mA at 5v...peaking 110mA during I/O or reset

reader on it's own draws 30mA

the whitey works fine with ATR...reset and read/au ect down to 2.76V....below that it will not reset

now waiting for a new nds3 to see how it's going to act!? anyone have an expired one to sell for testing??

**djshary** · 21-03-09, 05:53 AM

Hi guys I have done big research in making this Phoenix Interface. The first picture of making phoenix,i have already made that circuit i even made modifications according to guy in the above thread he mentioned like wise changing Max232 to Max 3232, I have done that but i havent made before the modification which is illustrated in abv picture of zener diode cause i had hold on original picture with components detail and making of circuit. My problem that im facing is that device is not working good it gives error "card detect fail" it does detect card but soon fails it back.....Ne suggestions fromyou guys

**Stannymt** · 22-03-09, 09:07 AM

after going through a bad experience and extensive research I have concluded the following:

Got a second NDS3 card (IT). The original receiver gives the card 5V! not 3.3v.
I have put a 150mA fuse in series and all supplied with a 78S05

card been running fine & cool with over 200K ECM now !!

**djshary** · 24-03-09, 05:34 AM

HI STANNYMT
I have successfully worked out the interface and its working fine with ird***crds. I believe it shall work with every card.....

**djshary** · 28-03-09, 03:36 AM

Hi if you guys can help me im having problem connecting device through usb to rs232 port it simply says card init fail any suggestion

**Fernbay** · 28-03-09, 08:56 AM

Originally Posted by djshary

Hi if you guys can help me im having problem connecting device through usb to rs232 port it simply says card init fail any suggestion

USB to RS232 converters don't work correctly when it comes to card readers.
Use a direct rs232 connection on another PC and try again.

**AceR** · 28-03-09, 12:14 PM

You put a 1000 euro card in tha reader and snuffed it?
That's why you get used cards first to test with

**bobzombie** · 07-04-09, 02:30 PM

I have a Coco MCR card , it's the same as Gamma with exact same ATR
and it's Ird*to2 ACS 4.1
I use it with Dreambox and in external card reader, and the software is gbox (gbox caches ecm requests just like NewCS)
After some days, the card refuse working after a while, hours or minutes.
I read in the forum, that some pplz experienced same problem with Gamma in Humax and Strong receivers. And the solution they used was modding the internal reader of receiver to drive 3 volt to the card.

Then after 1 week the card totally died

, maybe cause of overheating or so much Ecm was sending 24/7 to the card.

So now i need a reader that drive 3 to 4 volts to the card.
What about this one ? is this card reader drive 3 volt to the card or 5 volt ?