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Thread: starter motor cct

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    Default starter motor cct

    Can anyone here tell me if the power for the solenoid (pull in ) is wired via the starter motor brushes in a 92 v6 Pajero. I know it is on my 92 Navara & I'm wondering if most of them do it this way now ?



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    I thought they all are like that, (the starter motor wired via the solenoid, not the other way around) unless theres been some new developments.

    There should be the main heavy power line from the battery, straight to the starters solenoid and a smaller ignition wire that operates the solenoid.

    A simple eyeball of it will tell you watchdog. There should be a very heavy cable going from the solenoid into the main casing for the starter, thats the line that the main power travels down to turn the starter motor when the solenoid energizes.

    What the problem watchdog, starter not working?

    newer models

    older models;

    Looks like the same thing, main power from the battery to the solenoid, after contact inside the solenoid via the small wire (ignition key barrel), power through to the main motor.

    Edit; did you mean, does the main power going to the ignition barrel and returning to the starter come from the main positive terminal of the starter? Maybe i miss understood the question your asking?

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    There should be the main heavy power line from the battery, straight to the starters solenoid and a smaller ignition wire that operates the solenoid.

    A simple eyeball of it will tell you watchdog. There should be a very heavy cable going from the solenoid into the main casing for the starter, thats the line that the main power travels down to turn the starter motor when the solenoid energizes.

    Yeah thats how they have been as far as I understood but in the Navara the circuit to operate the solenoid is via the starter motor brushes so if your brushes are crook then the solenoid won't even pull in. Strange but true.
    As for the Pajero - well I drove it today & it started ok but an hour later it gave the result described above. So I was wondering if this is a common way of wiring the solenoid cct nowdays. I'll use the 4lb persuader on the starter in the morning & see if I can knock some sense into the starter brushes.

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    I cannot understand how the power comes from the brushes when the power has to go to the brushes via the solenoid.

    Its got me puzzled. Maybe something ive never seen.

    Having said that some points to watch.

    Yes a good whack can do wonders.
    Burnt contacts in the ignition switch can make a bad contact and bugger you around.
    A bad earth connection to the block or body can do the same. (I had one car that took me a week to diagnose with this, it would only crank with jump leads).

    Test your starter by shorting the big positive lead and the small terminal. (if it looks like a traditional starting system)

    If the starter works and checks out OK but will not start via the ignition key and the small wire is working (check with a volage tester), you could bypass the small wire by fitting a relay activated via your regular ignition starter connection, just wire a seperate line to the battery with a fuse and switch it via the small wire from the key.
    I had a car that had no starter problem but wouldnt turn the starter, the small wire had power when turning the key, the only way around it was by fitteing a seperate relay as described, its been starting without a problem for the last 7 years now. It looks like the small wire didnt pass enough current to activate the solenoid but it did have enough to activate a relay which did the job.

    Id suggest taking out the starter and testing it on a bench.

    Edit; Just remembered, if its auto make sure its in neutral or park and maybe test your trannies position switch and both neutral and park positions. It will also disable your starter.
    I know, its caught me out once. LOL

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    Just done the rundown on testing the thing . It is wired in the conventional way. So short out the main power feed on the solenoid - no go for the starter motor. Check the solenoid feed from ign , solenoid power ok . Pull the starter out to give it the once over & guess what - solenoid working ok & starter working ok. FK I hate it when this happens. The solenoid feed has been modified to run via a relay & I'm now suspecting that it may have seriously burnt contacts. That would explain why I see 12V at the solenoid with a multimeter (no load) but could not hear the solenoid operate when trying to start. Gives you the poos when every test you do points in a different direction.
    Anyway it will have to wait till later , it is already 37 in the shade & I will end up looking like a bit of road kill if I go back out there now.

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    Earth or burnt relay (possibly a blown fuse from the battery to the relay for the direct feed, check with a tester for power at the relay)....

    Get a jump lead connect it to the negative terminal and directly to the block or starter body to test your earth connection.

    Go to the relay and directly join your main power line with the wire that runs back to the starter, when joined the thing should engage the solinoid and crank. (hot wire it to crank by directly suppying power to the small terminal on the starter.)

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    OK - took the relay out of cct & put wiring back to original & now starting . I'll open that relay up later & I'll bet my wife & kids to a beer that there are seriously burnt contacts in there.
    Thanks for your input Godzilla.
    Ahh to go back to a holden red motor.

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    well Godzilla , I hope you enjoy my wife & kids as much as I have. Tested the thing about a dozen times & it started every time. Then I went out in it & you guessed it - the bloody thing refused to kick over again. It is definitly an electrical problem inside the starter/solenoid. So the car is where it is & the starter is here with me & an autopsy will be performed tomorrow.

    Ahh - for a holden red motor

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    LOL

    Well the whole point of this thread has been its not the starter, but something else.

    Take it out, give it a workout with a set of jump leads and screwdriver for the short to the little terminal.

    Theres just one thing thats running in the back of my mind.

    If there was a relay fitted previously, I'm going to say that connecting it back to factory wouldn't have fixed a thing.

    Double check the relay, it was put there for a reason.

    Yes it may just only be the contacts inside the starters solenoid that need a little sandpaper and possibly a little bend closer.

    Ive also seen this problem only when the cars hot, i believe it may be resistance in the small wire, normally the relay mod took care of that problem.

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    I've given it a good workout outside the car & it seems to be ok about 80% of the time but EVERY time I put it back in it wouldn't work. I've tried with the bolts untensioned in case there is warping.When it doesn't work it is both the solenoid AND the starter. The only common thing I can think of is the earthing & I"ve tried earthing straight to the battery. I'll gut the barstard tomorrow & see how tough it is.

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    Ok - opened it up & two of the four brush were down to SFA. $45 at the auto electrician got it sorted out.
    Godzilla - to add to your wealth of info , I asked about the solenoid cct running via the brushes. Just about ALL solenoids nowdays have two windings. One is the operate winding & the other is a "hold" winding which takes over after the solenoid operates. The operate winding gets its earth via the brushes. So crook brushes = no operation of the solenoid. This was why either every thing seemed to work or nothing seemed to work. Again - thanks for your input.

    Ahh for a holden red motor

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    Thanks for shareing that info watchdog, always learning, great to see you sorted it out.

    I didnt know there was a hold winding, there you go, another bit of knowledge that may come in handy one day.

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    Just so I don't get a reputation for welching on my bets - where do you want me to drop the wife & kids off Godzilla ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by watchdog View Post
    Just so I don't get a reputation for welching on my bets - where do you want me to drop the wife & kids off Godzilla ?
    LOL, you keep them mate, ive got enough headaches here for one life time.

    Lets place another bet.

    I bet "whatever" that it fails on you again in a short time when the cars hot.

    You better fit that relay conversion back in, its was put there for a reason.

    Last time i had a ignition barrel in pieces i was surprised by the amount of burnt contacts.

    Better be safe than sorry, besides if the relay fails down the road its a 2 second job to put it back to standard on the side of the road or by pass the relay.

    Just my thoughts.

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    Already done. Like you said , somebody thought it should be there so while ever it is working it can stay.

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