GPRS -- Remote Monitoring for Equipment in the Middle of No Where...

[IPAlarms]

It's polling but not reporting anything.
I re-attend site and found the permaconn has fallen asleep.
Heartbeat, panel comms etc. all good but nothing getting out over the GPRS or PSTN.
Powered it down/up and my CMS receives 100s of buffered opens/closes/alarms soon after.
Not good enough sonny Jim.

Here's the problem - the same thing could just as easily happen with any of the other GPRS boards out there. It's a common concern for electronic boards manufacturers and no matter how much you bench test, only time and tens of thousands of units in the field will help overcome this.

My guess is that there are only a few hundred boards from each of the GPRS providers out in the field - even though they'll tell you there are thousands. Like it or not - you are all beta testers and I'll bet this is the first Permaconn have heard of this problem. Now what they'll do is fix the problem, quickly release a firmware upgrade and move on with a slightly better board and wait for the next issue to arise. That's the best that any of the manufacturers can do.

[Arbiter]

It's called "crisis management" and not enough of the manufacturers spend a lot of time in the real world.
I'm still waiting for a permaconn rep to jump on here and attempt to discredit/kill the messenger as is usually the case in this place.
Fact is, I predominantly use another manufacturers' GPRS/IP solution and have had zero problems with any of them.
This was an oddball site but the proof of the pudding etc. so it's not hard to figure what is going on the wall next.

[Homer Simpson]

abiter, dod you call the Permaconn tech support line to see what the problrem is...99% of issues are usually programmers error or panel fail, im not saying this is the case but u gotta start from stage 1 and work thru it.

The Permaconn doesnt store messages, did you reboot the panel and Pcon or just the Pcon?? If the Permaconn was down the CMS would have got a Comms Fail, did they get this?

[keef82]

lol dvrs obsolete, wtf?

[balun]

My guess is that there are only a few hundred boards from each of the GPRS providers out in the field - even though they'll tell you there are thousands. Like it or not - you are all beta testers and I'll bet this is the first Permaconn have heard of this problem. Now what they'll do is fix the problem, quickly release a firmware upgrade and move on with a slightly better board and wait for the next issue to arise. That's the best that any of the manufacturers can do.

Can garauntee that atleast one of the manufaturers has thousands out there. Same as anything tho, if you install enough of the same product you will get some duds.
We install one particular panel everyday and in my opinion are the most reliable one manufactured, but low and behold dud dialler and then the next day a dud keypad.
A tecom that wouldn't recognise an IUM last week.
Open circuit detector that when returned to the manufacture worked perfect.
And also a meal at my favourite restaurant that was pretty crap but usually its spot on.
All in one month, all good reliable products just a few slipped thru.

[Homer Simpson]

lol dvrs obsolete, wtf?

ive seen some interesting technology in the last week..remote server based recording using IP cameras, it will become more and more popular as the technology evolves.

DVR,s will become less and less and server farms more common, this industy evolves more every day.

[IPAlarms]

Can garauntee that atleast one of the manufaturers has thousands out there.

I'm guessing SCSI. Yes - I can believe that.

And also a meal at my favourite restaurant that was pretty crap but usually its spot on.

You can afford to eat out ?

Man - I'm at the wrong end of this business !!

[IPAlarms]

ive seen some interesting technology in the last week..remote server based recording using IP cameras, it will become more and more popular as the technology evolves.

I'm betting my future on it buddy !

I don't know how long it will take you Aussies to jump onboard, but it's already the current industry buzz in the US

[Homer Simpson]

Isreal is massive with this too....Id say Australia is atleast 5 years behind the USA when it comes to Security.

I know Permaconn has thousands of outstations cause the main server processes over 1 million events a day...thats alot of data!

[balun]

ive seen some interesting technology in the last week..remote server based recording using IP cameras, it will become more and more popular as the technology evolves.

DVR,s will become less and less and server farms more common, this industy evolves more every day.

I disagree on this one and i have one word to sum it up ... bandwidth. With the rapid rise of megapixel cameras it will be more important than ever to have large amounts of storage onsite.
Agree videoverification will take off tho.

[Arbiter]

abiter, dod you call the Permaconn tech support line to see what the problrem is...99% of issues are usually programmers error or panel fail, im not saying this is the case but u gotta start from stage 1 and work thru it.

The Permaconn doesnt store messages, did you reboot the panel and Pcon or just the Pcon?? If the Permaconn was down the CMS would have got a Comms Fail, did they get this?

No I didn't call Permaconn.
Why should I have to?
It was (we think) working until it copped tons of alarms during routine maintenance.
It then fell over without indicating a problem existed.
The panel feeding it CID gave no indication of a problem so I believe it was passing CID to the unit ok and this was verified by the Panel Comms LED doing it's job.
The CMS had no indication of a problem until the site missed test reports.
For whatever reasons the device failed after multiple alarms were generated - simple as that.
We are in business to provide our customers with quality service for a reasonable price, not play beta tester for manufacturers at our expense.
We certainly are not in business to provide red-faced excuses to our customers for products we install that fail to perform.
That is a sure fire way to get sued.

[bss904]

abiter, dod you call the Permaconn tech support line to see what the problrem is...99% of issues are usually programmers error or panel fail, im not saying this is the case but u gotta start from stage 1 and work thru it.

The Permaconn doesnt store messages, did you reboot the panel and Pcon or just the Pcon?? If the Permaconn was down the CMS would have got a Comms Fail, did they get this?

After checking the failed device for obvious faults first and regardless of the brand of comms device, if it failed on one of my sites it would of been removed and sent back to the supplier for a please explain why in writing.
One failed comms device with an unknown reason for the failure is one too many and if it did it once then it could happen again and you could bet that it would happen at the worse time. Power resetting/rebooting a failed comms device is stupidity especially without knowing what caused the failure in the first place as it leaves you and your client at risk not to mention your reputation if an incident occured at a later date.

[Arbiter]

Power resetting/rebooting a failed comms device is stupidity especially without knowing what caused the failure in the first place as it leaves you and your client at risk not to mention your reputation if an incident occured at a later date.

That's precisely why it's being replaced with known working reliable product.

[rotor138]

We have had this problem before as well with the Permaconns, I have replaced at least 7 that have stopped reporting for no apparent reason. This seven still polled ok just stopped communicating alarms. Also had 2 interface failures. Not good enough!!!

Also if you send through multiple alarms they can't handle it and die in the arse but will normally communicate the next message after the panel exceeds it's dial attempts.

We are now trialling the DW DTU3+ only problem found so far is that alot of the time the panel lead needs to have 2 and 6 reversed in the plug. We now make it a rule that we ring DW and ask them to log into unit and check it for us to avoid callbacks.

[IPAlarms]

OK - now I'm getting suspiscious. Anyone else want to stick the boot in whilst we are at it ?

Perhaps Admin can clear up why we have never seen the forum member PermaconnRep since he said something he shouldn't have about the SCSI certificate ?

This is turning into a "Let's jump all over Permaconn" thread and none of us even know if they are even aware of the "alleged" problem yet.

No I didn't call Permaconn.
Why should I have to?

You have a serious problem with a critical device yet you can't be bothered to phone the manufacturer to try and resolve the issue? - What's all that about ?

It was (we think) working until it copped tons of alarms during routine maintenance.

You think ?

You left the unit in service on a hunch that it was working OK ?

You mean to tell me that the panel is not programmed for hourly, or at least daily test signals to confirm correct operation of both panel and signalling equipment ?

We are in business to provide our customers with quality service for a reasonable price, not play beta tester for manufacturers at our expense.

Like I said, like it or not, you are all beta testers for every GPRS device on the market. Some will do better in the tests than others.

We certainly are not in business to provide red-faced excuses to our customers for products we install that fail to perform.
That is a sure fire way to get sued.

Hey, don't worry about it because when you show them the documentation from the six months of rigorous testing that your company did before putting the device live into the field, they will not have a leg to stand on.

You did do the in-house testing didn't you ?

[IPAlarms]

Power resetting/rebooting a failed comms device is stupidity especially without knowing what caused the failure in the first place as it leaves you and your client at risk not to mention your reputation if an incident occured at a later date.

Hey - you have got to consider this guy as a serious candidate for a double act in your weekend shows.

[keef82]

I always programme a 4 hour test timer (on panels that support this) or use the serial interconnect.

When on a maintenance i turn OFF Multi Break alarms, so the system only generates one alarm per zone per arming.

When done i call CMS check all activations and re enable the Multi Break, otherwise you're there all day waiting for the poor dialer to catch up.

I have not had the issues you guys are talking about, "Ip Device, SCSI, Permaconn e.t.c" stops talking to the CMS.

We don't use the products you guys are mentioning so i really cant comment on their sustainability, aka, being smashed with alarms & falling over.

But allot of in house testing was done with the gear we use before it was launched

I would have contacted the company in question and asked them, how many events can this thing buffer before it falls over..

Possibly insisted on a rep from that company attending site..

Let me know how u go..

[keef82]

We have had this problem before as well with the Permaconns, I have replaced at least 7 that have stopped reporting for no apparent reason. This seven still polled ok just stopped communicating alarms. Also had 2 interface failures. Not good enough!!!

Also if you send through multiple alarms they can't handle it and die in the arse but will normally communicate the next message after the panel exceeds it's dial attempts.

We are now trialling the DW DTU3+ only problem found so far is that alot of the time the panel lead needs to have 2 and 6 reversed in the plug. We now make it a rule that we ring DW and ask them to log into unit and check it for us to avoid callbacks.

Hrm, this product doesn't come in an enclosure does it? and i don't think it has it's own power supply / battery backup either..

Can anyone else see the issue connecting a reporting device to a panels AUX power ?

[bss904]

OK - now I'm getting suspiscious. Anyone else want to stick the boot in whilst we are at it ?

What would you being getting suspicious of Steve ? People stating common sense approaches to failed equipment is called putting the boot in is it. I think I would be getting suspicious of your motives.........but we know better don’t we, and somewhere along the line their will be a bios view promoting your equipment.

Perhaps Admin can clear up why we have never seen the forum member PermaconnRep since he said something he shouldn't have about the SCSI certificate ?

Why the hell does admin need to clear anything up for you? Are you really that naive Steve? If you read all of the posts from the first to the last regarding that poster you would have seen boundaries were being pushed in nearly every post straight from day one. He was here for no other reason than to represent a product for the company he is employed by. In case you haven’t noticed, manufactures and distributers tend to pop up here for no other reason than to promote their wares and for some market gain and some have a tendency to manipulate the truth as well.

This is turning into a "Let's jump all over Permaconn" thread and none of us even know if they are even aware of the "alleged" problem yet.

Pick up a phone and give them a call. Do you really think that they would not be aware of any problems their products might or might not have in the field?
Do you really think everyone here is dumb and can’t see what your motives are by highlighting the name of a product and its problems whilst pretending to be concerned about them? Why not stick some flashing neon lights around your posts.

You have a serious problem with a critical device yet you can't be bothered to phone the manufacturer to try and resolve the issue?

Do you believe a phone call would fix the problem? As you stated, “a serious problem with a critical device”, I think not.
As I stated, I would remove it from site and send it back to the supplier/manufacturer. Any normal person would not leave them selves open to further trouble until the cause had been identified, rectified and tested as being fixed. It does not matter which product you use, if it fails, I want to know why and also know that the problem has been permanently addressed and rectified. This method comes under the heading of professionalism Steve, something that seems to elude you at times. I suggest you try working in countries with standards again and stop trying to lower our standards to your levels again.

Like I said, like it or not, you are all beta testers for every GPRS device on the market. Some will do better in the tests than others.

If that is the case, then why are you not stating that in the glossy sales brochures for the product? Why should we and our clients be paying for the beta testing of your product?

Hey, don't worry about it because when you show them the documentation from the six months of rigorous testing that your company did before putting the device live into the field, they will not have a leg to stand on.
You did do the in-house testing didn't you ?

Six months with some products and a lot longer with others. Some only minutes before they are introduced to landfill.
Contrary to what you might think Steve, not every here is a mushroom and some have the ability to think for themselves.
Lots of organizations conduct rigorous in-house testing and trials before committing themselves to a specific product. Granted a lot don’t, but that is the risk that they take for themselves and their clients and they end up paying the price long term hurting their back pockets and reputations.
Some people on here do testing of products for different manufacturers to judge suitability for our marketplace and if they find the product falls short make constructive suggestions to rectify these issues or to improve the product. A good manufacturer listens and learns from these suggestions.

[IPAlarms]

What would you being getting suspicious of Steve ? People stating common sense approaches to failed equipment is called putting the boot in is it.

I was once told that SCSI had an "influence" with the owners of Austech and brushed it off as gossip. The way the Permaconn Rep "vanished" was a bit strange and I'd like to find out if he has been banned for good - or simply chosen not to participate like many others before him ?

There is no common sense in publicly slating a product when you know perfectly well that the manufacturer cannot defend themselves Yes - you are putting the boot in !

I think I would be getting suspicious of your motives.........but we know better don’t we, and somewhere along the line their will be a bios view promoting your equipment.

Oh puleeease. Permaconn offer no threat to my company as a competitor and my solutions are waaaay past requiring promotion on here.

Why the hell does admin need to clear anything up for you? Are you really that naive Steve? If you read all of the posts from the first to the last regarding that poster you would have seen boundaries were being pushed in nearly every post straight from day one. He was here for no other reason than to represent a product for the company he is employed by.

I don't agree. Yes, he made a few early mistakes and you're always going to get a bit of promotion on the side, but he offered his help to anyone wanting to ask questions about his product. Isn't that good for members of the forum ?

Do you really think everyone here is dumb and can’t see what your motives are by highlighting the name of a product and its problems whilst pretending to be concerned about them? Why not stick some flashing neon lights around your posts.

Motives again ? - I assure you - there are none. You know exactly why I come on here.... purely for fun. I find the Australian security industry both facinating and entertaining. As an entertainer yourself, you know what I mean.

This method comes under the heading of professionalism Steve, something that seems to elude you at times. I suggest you try working in countries with standards again and stop trying to lower our standards to your levels again.

The old standards bate eh ? - Go on then, I've got a few minutes spare so I'll bite....

I've learned a lot in my 20+ years in this game. I've seen how the big corporates manipulate the standards to suit themselves and stifle fair competition and I've seen how monitoring companies and bureaus display fierce public adherence to the standards, yet as soon as they realise they can make hard cash with a product that does not meet the standards, they quickly, but quietly change their internal policies. Of course, standards are NEVER enforced (mainly because they are not enforceable) so nobody really gives a crap anyway.

We have the utmost respect for UL in North America and EN in Europe and our products have certification. Our customers in places like Africa, India and Asia provide us with guidlelines to any local standards that may (or may not) be in place, but just as companies like Tyco refuse to trade in corrupt countries, my company refuses to have any association with the Telstra/Optus security standards in AU/NZ.

To circumvent this farce, we decided to withdraw promotion of certain security products and only push forward with certified products. We promote a networked telecommunications device - NOT a security device. The device that we promote is manufactured by Cisco/Linksys and has all the relevant certifications for Australia and New Zealand.

This allows our bureaus to upgrade their customers telecoms equipment with certified equipment which in turn allow their diallers to communicate reliably over IP. Simple.

I've been down the manufacturer road and we experienced exactly the same issues as are currently being experienced by the GPRS providers. It was my "professionalism" that decided this was not the way to go. We now use devices that have been proven by 10 million users in over 50 countries worldwide - not a few thousand boards being beta tested by pig ignorant alarm installers.

How's that for a bit of Sunday afternoon fun

Contrary to what you might think Steve, not every here is a mushroom and some have the ability to think for themselves.

Really - do you have their contact details ?

Some people on here do testing of products for different manufacturers to judge suitability for our marketplace and if they find the product falls short make constructive suggestions to rectify these issues or to improve the product. A good manufacturer listens and learns from these suggestions.

Mmm.... I wonder who those people are and which manufacturers they work with ?

....now where did I put those "anti-suspicion" tablets ?