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Thread: msay MKII interface project (gw1 hacks)

  1. #41
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    to:msay

    still canot download the schematic, can you email me?
    alphandy@gmail.com

    thanks



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    The download link works for me. Your problems may be due to a popup blocker or NoScript etc.

    I've emailed you a copy of the schematic.

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    Like gw1 said, popup blocker, NoScript, desktop firewall, proxy can cause problems. Today this is kind of obvious but, you need to have java enabled to download from any site like 4shared, megaupload, rapidshare etc.

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    For those that might need a PC/SC driver, here is one:


    You can use with any SmartMouse/Phenix serial interface, i did not test with my own interface because i don't have any blank card to play with.

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    I don't know if i can ask it here or not !

    i made the programmer , but i have problem
    Power LED : on
    Data LED : on (after inserting card, Data: off , Card in: on )
    but both PH and JDM are off.

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    I'm assuming you built Rev 5, have reasonable soldering skills and understand IC pin numbering.

    Firstly make sure you have T2 (BC548/548/549) and R13 (10K) fitted.
    Change R21 to 10K and try again.

    If no joy then try the following and let us know what you find.
    • Check orientation of IC4, IC5, LED4, LED5.
    • Check wire links to LEDs are soldered correctly.
    • Check IC5 pin 16 is approx 13V.
    • Check R22 is 1K and soldered correctly.
    • Check R13 and T2 are soldered correctly and check T2 orientation.
    • Check that the track on IC5 pins 9,10,11 has both links fitted and doesn't have inadvertent short circuit anywhere.
    • Measure voltage on IC7 (555) pin 3. It should be either 5V or 0V and it should change state each time you press the button.
    • Measure voltage on IC5 pin 9. It should be either 13V or 0V and change state each time you press the button.


    IMPORTANT
    Rev 5 has an error: R21 should be changed to 10K. I hadn't noticed this error until now. In Rev 4 it was 1K which was a bit too low, but 1M shown in Rev 5 is too high and probably insufficient to saturate T2 (unless you were using say a MOSFET instead of BC547).

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    Thanks for replying.
    I have Rev. 5
    I don't have 3.68 Crystal but i set the jumper on 3.57 all the time.
    And my T2 is BC547 as Schematic of Rev 5
    But in the last post you said it should be BC548/549 !!!
    Which one is correct?

    I replace R21 (1M) with 10K and PH/JDM LED was ok , then i disconnect the power and connect it again and again same problem, both LED are off.

    IC 7 (555) pin 3 is 3.8 volt and 0 volt when switching.
    Also nowhere i have 13 Volt !!!
    so i think the problem is about 13 Volt.
    At the C7 & D2 i have 15 Volt but after R1 and D6 i have 0 Volt !!! I guess it's where 13 Volt should coming from.

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    T2 can be any general purpose NPN transistor with "C B E" pinout. Component substitution is common practice in hobby electronics. I meant to say BC548, BC549, BC337, BC338 etc can be used instead of BC547 if that's all you have in your junk box. Sorry for the confusion.

    You say IC7 (555) pin 3 is 3.8V. It's been years since I used a 555 but from memory that's not normal. It definitely looks like something is screwy with your supply rails.

    Check that R1 is 1K5 and soldered properly.
    Check D6 is a 13V zener.
    Check orientation of D6, C8, IC4 and IC5.
    Check that R2,R3,R4 are all 47K.
    Check thoroughly for short circuits around IC4 and IC5 (use a magnifying glass and bright light).

    Are IC4 or IC5 warm?

    Tell us what voltages you measure on
    - C, B, E of Q1
    - IC7 (555) pins 2 and 8

    If you've used IC sockets for IC4 and IC5 then remove those ICs temporarily and see if the 13V rail is restored. If you haven't used IC sockets don't desolder them just yet. Let us know what you find.

    msay had similar problem with his 555 circuit not behaving the way I expected it would with T2, and I have a feeling your problem may be related to his experience. We'll try a couple more things, but if problems persist I might get you to post the board to me so I can find out what the issue is.

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    Thanx for ur attention.
    I double checked everything , and all was ok.
    Only after removing IC4 & IC5 , 13 volt is ok
    So did i burn the IC4 & IC5 and should i replace them with new ones ?

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    Assuming you have sockets try reinserting just one, then remove it and try the other.
    - If the 13V rail collapses on both occasions then you can assume both are dead and need replacing.
    - If 13V rail is OK with one of the ICs, try that good IC in both socket positions and see if there is any difference.

    But before you do, I think you should also increase R5, R15 and R16 to 820R. This reduces to 6mA the momentary current through IC4 & IC5 pins when cards are inserted/removed. The problem with the 470R value at the moment is it allows (slightly over) 10mA which is the absolute maximum and may be what's caused the damage in your case. The HC logic drivers in the Jaycar kits are fine with 470R, but 4000-series CMOS is quite limited in how much current it can handle.

    There's not much else that could be damaging IC4 or IC5 apart from static electricity, inserting them the wrong way around, or excess heat when soldering. That's provided R22 is no lower than 1K, and the voltage on D5 is no higher than 13V.

    By the way, it turns out the low voltage on pin 3 is normal. The 555's output stage structure has tons of current drive but restricted voltage swing. That's all the more reason why T2 is important for reliable switching of the 4053's (their logic input threshold is higher than normal because they're powered from 13V).

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    Something strange is happening here.
    tomorrow i will buy and replace some of parts with new ones.

    with only one 4053 in IC4 , the Data LED light changes with switch (less light and more light)
    with only one 4053 in IC5 , the PH/JDM LED works ok.
    BUT strange thing is that sometimes its like what i said above , and sometimes nothing at all, no change in LED status.
    i tried with both of them , and it's the same.

    And also with only one 4053 IC (no matter which one and in which socket IC4 or IC5 ) , 13 volt rail is ok !
    but with two 4053 at the same time , 13 volt rail is 0 volt.

    also i have CD4053BE not 4053
    N.

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    Sorry if i'm late

    The R21 1M is used to reduce the current on T2 and save the 13V rail, you can use 100K but on programing mode (JDM) the 13V rail will drop a little and in some cases get error, trust me, in this very specific case keep R21 1M.

    First of all, make sure you have 5V from IC3, if not you are not feeding the IC3 with enough voltage or there is a short or problems at that area, i use a 12VDC wall adapter, you can use a 9VDC also.

    And before you ever, ever put the IC1, IC2, IC4, IC5, IC6 and IC7 on this circuit (the same rules apply to other circuits that you build too) check the circuit main voltage, in this case check IC3 output 5V (4.99V), if is not ok check and recheck everything. If it is ok, check all IC's slots that uses 5V to see if they are getting it the 5V.

    Next, turn the circuit OFF and put IC6 in place and check the voltages again.

    On powerup you should have in PH mode (no card):
    POWER LED ON.
    PH LED ON.
    DATA LED OFF (if COMMA jumper open DATA LED ON)
    CARD-IN OFF (CARD-IN ON with card)

    JDM mode (no card):
    POWER LED ON.
    JDM LED ON.
    DATA LED OFF (If you slide in a incompatible card like atmel DATA LED ON)
    CARD-IN OFF (CARD-IN ON with card)

    If both PH/JDM LED are OFF, check IC4 pin 4, R22 and the 5V line connected to it, also, check if the LED's are not inverted.

    IC 7 (555) should have 4.39V on pin 3.
    D2 should have 16.36V on cathode.
    D6 should have 12.68V on cathode.
    IC3 get a little warmth, very little, all the other components runs cold!!

    With all IC's in place and with power ON, no LED should oscillate, blink, turn on/off by it self, POWER, PH, CARD-IN and JDM LED's according to it's own function on the circuit, should be fully ON or fully OFF, they will never oscillate. If you remove IC5 there will be no visual indication about the change on PH/JDM mode.

    DATA LED will oscillate/blink on data read/write or will turn it self ON or OFF depending on the card used, the fact that it stay ON has to do with T3 and what is happening on that I/O line.

    On my tests i leave the COMMA jumper in place all the time, otherwise i get invalid ATR with the cards that i have, again, this depends on the card used. So play with it if you are getting invalid ATR errors all the time.

    Please post a picture of your board, specially the solder side of it, also look for bridges since this board is complex to build.

    Also make sure you are using 4053BP / CD4053B otherwise they will get damaged by the high voltage, i'm using Philips HFE4053BP.
    Last edited by msay; 19-03-09 at 06:17 PM.

  • #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by msay View Post
    The R21 1M is used to reduce the current on T2 and save the 13V rail, you can use 100K but on programing mode (JDM) the 13V rail will drop a little and in some cases get error, trust me, keep R21 1M in this very specific case
    I understand what you're saying, and it's possible I'm incorrect because I don't have hardware to test on, but I think you may be barking up the wrong tree

    I agree that the 13V rail needs to be stable and not dip too low, otherwise the PIC programming mode won't be reliable. The question is what is drawing the current. Your explanation seems to be that T2 is drawing the current. But I suspect that IC4 and IC5 are drawing the current, not T2.

    It's true that T2 draws some current, unfortunately, creating a voltage divider effect between R1 and R13 that drops the 13V rail. Let's fix that by increasing R13 to 56K (or even 100K if you want - that's fine since the 4053 control inputs have extremely high impedance). But after doing that I think you'll find the problem remains.

    My explanation for the problems you both experienced is that driving T2 weakly is exactly what you mustn't do! The miniscule base current through a 1M barely turns T2 on, which means it's operating in the linear region. That leaves the 4053 control voltage hovering somewhere between Vss and Vdd which is an absolute no-no with 4000 series CMOS! With few exceptions, CMOS logic inputs always need to be either pulled down to Vss or up to Vdd, because intermediate levels cause them to draw than they should, potentially even being damaged. That would explain why at times the mode switch hasn't worked, why both mode LEDs were sometimes off, and why the 13V rail has been compromised.

    It's likely that the excess current draw on the 13V rail is purely because of this issue, which you can easily correct:
    1) Change R21 to 10K
    2) Increase R13 to 56K (or 100K if you prefer).

    If after making these changes you should find, when no card is present, that the mode LEDs behave properly and the voltage on T2 collector swings cleanly between 0.0V and the 13V rail level. If not then you need to find out why before trying to talk to cards.

    There may be a sleeper issue with the T3 configuration, because I'm concerned by bobzombie's description of the Data LED as dim/bright vs on/off. Dim suggests there may be a problem with unstable IC4 oscillation, or maybe T3 has inadequate gain to saturate when driven via R12/IC4/R5 path. But one thing at a time. If improper SWCLK control is the culprit that could also account for strange Data behaviour.
    Last edited by gw1; 20-03-09 at 12:21 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by msay View Post
    On my tests i leave the COMMA jumper in place all the time, otherwise i get invalid ATR with the cards that i have, again, this depends on the card used.
    Because of the voltage divider effect between R8 and R10 I recommend you change R8 to 10K. I hadn't realised until just now that the design doesn't have any other pullup on I/O (apart from the very weak one in the MAX232), and because of R10 the pullup is definitely required.

    An unfortunate side-effect of R10 is (in conjunction with R8 and the pullup resistor inside the card) it biases the I/O line to an intermediate potential. It degrades card compatibility, complicates the already dodgy R12 arrangement (one of the dirty short cuts in Jaycar Mk II's design), and risks elevating card temperature. If you find cases where certain cards fail to work you may find desoldering R10 brings them to life, because of this problem.

    To fix it, rather than desolder R10, I suggest you instead replace T3 with a FET. You'll need to insert it backwards so that its source is on GND, its gate is on R10 and its drain is on R11. I haven't tried it myself but it should work. (Circuits typically have additional pulldowns to ground on the FET gate but I don't think it's necessary here.)

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    Quote Originally Posted by gw1 View Post
    I understand what you're saying, and it's possible I'm incorrect because I don't have hardware to test on, but I think you may be barking up the wrong tree
    No, I'm not barking at no one

    The real problem is the voltage doubler trick to get the 13V, the case of R21 was decided on tests, I know, there is stuff hanged on the 13V rail that the original programmer was not waiting for but the trick (another?) worked. I had also think about increasing the R13 value to about 100K, but messing with that will drop the 13V across that resistor and possible, compromise the SWCLK.

    I did not test this.

    And again we get back to the real problem, how the circuit generates the 13V, the 4053's consume low current but i don't know how much current is necessary to program a card, if they all consume the same or if there are ones that uses more or less current.(??)

    I'm just thinking loud here, if the 13V is that critical, we are working on tight limits of the circuit instead of safe limits. Thinking with my buttons, i would undo the voltage doubler trick before R1 and configure the MAX232 to have an well know configuration instead. Add a LM317 configured to regulate 13V, feed the circuit with 15VDC instead of 12VDC.

    This will increase the component count but we will have a much more safe limit to deal with and we will not be fighting for a few extra current.

    About the problem with the led mode, this is a strange effect, my guess is that there is something wrong with bobzombie board or components, the part the you've already pointed out about the IC7 pin 3 with only 3.8V. I've send the schematic to friends that have also build it without this problem, to be precise, 18 people have build the board without this effect.

    Well, we need to wait bobzombie reply before going any further.

    There is any more changes necessary to the circuit?

    I've just finished up the last touches to my board


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    Thanks guys for your hard work! Would it be possible/hard to add 3.3V cards compatibility to this design?

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    Adding 3V support would be tricky, likely to break several things. Far better to modify a simpler design.

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    Quote Originally Posted by msay View Post
    Add a LM317 configured to regulate 13V, feed the circuit with 15VDC instead of 12VDC.
    That would be an improvement. However IMO it's unravelling - a lot of extra complexity just for a different switch mechanism!

    I maintain that T2 needs to be fully on or fully off, otherwise the 4053s won't be reliable.

    I offered to look at bobzombie's hardware for him but he lives far overseas :-/

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    Quote Originally Posted by gw1 View Post
    That would be an improvement. However IMO it's unravelling - a lot of extra complexity just for a different switch mechanism!

    I maintain that T2 needs to be fully on or fully off, otherwise the 4053s won't be reliable.
    Believe me, to add an extra LM317 is very easy with what has been done so far and there will be no need to care about current saving on the 13V rail.

    Quote Originally Posted by gw1 View Post
    I offered to look at bobzombie's hardware for him but he lives far overseas :-/
    Better you than me
    I live in another country.

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    Quote Originally Posted by msay View Post
    To add an extra LM317 is very easy with what has been done so far and there will be no need to care about current saving on the 13V rail.
    Yes, of course, but it does mean the user needs to come up with a 15V supply which is less convenient than 12V. That's what I meant, I wasn't really clear about it.

    I have a feeling we haven't seen the last of the switching issue. And I encourage you to explore the 2N7000 option - I have a feeling the I/O pulldown resistor will cause trouble in some cases if it hasn't already.

    I'm pleased to hear so many others have had success with your work

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