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    Default msay MKII interface project (gw1 hacks)

    The project is moved over here so we avoid hijacking the other thread .

    A brief resume, i wanted to build the Jaycar Phoenix Mk II but there was also little hacks/changes on the original design, what i did was redesign the original schematic and add my own changes, plus all gw1 hacks in one ready to be build board. As soon the project get tested and ready, schematic and board design will be released in PDF format so anyone can build your own 'msay MKII' for free.

    So far the features are:
    - GAMMA & DELTA modifications.
    - One Tactile Switch to change PH/JDM function.
    - Individual led's to indicate PH or JDM mode.
    - Inverter mod that can be activated by jumper.
    - D-SUB9 pins 6, 9 and 5 connected to ground.
    - Added suggested capacitors to Smart Card VCC.
    - Added shottky mod with 1N5819.
    - Every IC has now a 100nF bypass/decoupling capacitor for better stability.

    For now this is the schematic that we are using:


    And this is the board:



    Now i will resume the conversation of this project on this thread.

    The first board is ready:



    I left the board on for about 2 Hrs, no smoke, fire or explosion, all components run cold, this is good. There is one more bug to fix, the transistor at the output of pin 3 (555) set the interface to JDM when you first turn it on, it was design to start at PH mode.

    We can remove T2 and R13, both 4053 works fine without it, connecting R21 direct to SWCLK. Other important thing is that there are different types of 4053 that can handle 3.3V/5V/15V according to Philips

    The 4053 that i use was 4053B.

    The suggested 74HCU04 is hard to get in my country, Farnell has it under farnel code 1287555 but i have to wait about 3 weeks to get it, for now i will stick with 74HC04 until Farnell deliver my 74HCU04.

    All switches/modes and visual controls are working fine, i've put my STB satellite card in and the data led flashes for about a second than stop, looks like it want to talk.

    I did not test the interface yet, i could not find a serial cable, i have one serial cable that has a male <> male DB9 end, and i need a female<>male one. I was searching the internet but all i find is people selling the cable that i need instead of the correct way to build one, the close info that i could get was and

    Does any one know the pinout of this cable??

    After the tests i will update the schematic with all the changes suggested by gw1 and my own.

    Thanks.
    Last edited by msay; 20-02-09 at 03:33 PM.

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    Cool

    Quote Originally Posted by msay View Post
    I did not test the interface yet, i could not find a serial cable, i have one serial cable that has a male <> male DB9 end, and i need a female<>male one. I was searching the internet but all i find is people selling the cable that i need instead of the correct way to build one, the close info that i could get was [url=http://www.aggsoft.com/rs232-pinout-cable/serial-data-transfer-cable.htm/this site[/url] and

    Does any one know the pinout of this cable??
    Thanks.

    G'Day,
    Is this what you are looking for? The Jaycar and the AD-tecnik do however use a straight through RS-232 cable.
    Kindest Regards, " The Druid ".

    A null modem cable is an RS232 cable with various connections crossed over from one end to the other. I'll see if I can dig up a better explanation or diagram. It is always handy to have "Gender Benders" in your tool kit.
    ie: M to M and F to F DB9 connectors.

    Kindest Regards, " The Druid ".

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    Hello beer4life!

    I've found a bunch of this configurations, but none to with one male and female end. I will search my stuff, i think i might have one adapter from the days of 56K modem, it was so loooong time ago

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    One of the mods I suggest for Jaycar Mk II is mounting a capacitor between VCC and GND terminals of the smartcard socket. Processors demand high levels of current in frequent but very brief pulses. Capacitor with low internal resistance at high frequencies are what's needed but they have to be very close to the IC power pins, otherwise the inductance of the tracks between the IC and capacitor becomes significant. During high current pulses the voltage drop across long tracks temporarily reduces the voltage available to the processor and injects noise into it, which can cause it to malfunction (or in severe cases trip over into a self-destructive state). That's why on motherboards, Dream receivers and elsewhere you'll see a bunch of capacitors snuggled closely around the processor.

    Jaycar Mk II had several capacitors to filter noise off the supply voltage, near its regulator and ICs, but nothing near the smartcard socket where it was needed most of all. Unfortunately the routing of msay's v3 board suffers the same problem. As you can see the two shortest current paths between the card power terminals and its nearest current source (ie decoupling capacitor) are both quite long.



    To improve the situation what's needed is a short, thick wire link as shown.



    With digital circuits care is needed to keep high frequency tracks as short as possible, away from other sources of noise and crosstalk. With really high frequencies the length and width of the track, and characteristics of PCB layers, all become significant too (which is why you see lots of long squiggly tracks on motherboards and video cards, to get the track lengths the correct length). But the high frequency tracks are only half the story, because their current all passes through the power rails. That's why power routing is such an important consideration in digital circuits. Old video game PCBs have big thick power rails carving them up like city blocks. Modern boards have whole layers dedicated to ground and various supply voltages. On home-made single and double layer boards power is usually not a big deal, except when dealing with certain components. Fast ICs, regulators and high current amplifiers are among them.
    Last edited by gw1; 20-02-09 at 11:38 PM.

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    Regarding the serial cable, if you're plugging onto an external DB9 Male connector on back of PC, you need a male-to-female "serial extension cable". Most computer stores have them. They need to connect pin 1 to pin 1, pin 2 to pin 2, for all nine pins.

    So to make your own you need
    DB9M DB9F
    1 --- 1
    2 --- 2
    3 --- 3
    4 --- 4
    5 --- 5
    6 --- 6
    7 --- 7
    8 --- 8
    9 --- 9

    Commercially made cables usually have the metal housings of their connectors joined together using either the shield or an extra conductor. This helps equalise chassis voltages before pins make contact. It won't make any difference in your case since your interface doesn't use the connector housing. Provided you connect both ends of your serial cable before applying power to the interface you won't have any problems.

    Some commercially made cables, such as , identify themselves as "mouse extension cables". You need to be careful with them because they may only contain four wires, not nine. Such cables are unsuitable for use with Phoenix / JDM interfaces and will not work. Usually they are identifiable by being thinner and cheaper than fully-wired alternatives.

    "Null modem" cables will not work with Phoenix/JDM. Null modem cables do not connect wires straight through; instead they cross several wires over.
    i.e. Null Modem + Gender Changer <> Serial Extension

    Null modem cables are useful for updating receiver firmware (most receivers with rS232 port use a null modem cable for updates) but they are not suitable for Phoenix or JDM.
    Last edited by gw1; 20-02-09 at 08:15 PM. Reason: corrected error in "make your own cable" section

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    Can't see your images gw1.

    Thanks.

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    msay....all images ex gw1 all display on my pc....as well as your own.

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    Quote Originally Posted by viewer View Post
    msay....all images ex gw1 all display on my pc....as well as your own.
    Try CTRL+F5, no images from imageshack are loading, including my own.

    PS: Now i know, opendns blocked the site
    "Site blocked. is not allowed on this network. "

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    Quote Originally Posted by msay View Post
    The 4053 that i use was 4053B.
    That's fine. The 'B' suffix is very common, introduced on many of the 4000-series CMOS devices, signifying buffered output. Earlier devices had very limited current drive capability but the B ones were better. It's not critical in this application. Just be sure not to use 74HC4053 because those devices are only designed for 5V and will be destroyed if you supply them with VCC=13V.

    We can remove T2 and R13, both 4053 works fine without it, connecting R21 direct to SWCLK.
    It may work fine, with your particular batch of components and temperature, but you can't guarantee correct operation if SWCLK only goes up to 5V. If you look at the data sheet you'll see that a 4053 at Vdd=10V guarantees correct operation for inputs above 7V; for Vdd=15V you should drive up to at least 11V. So in our case with Vdd=13V we need to drive SWCLK up to at least 10V to guarantee reliable switching. That's what T2 is for. The alternative would be to power the 555 from 13V but as we discussed earlier we don't want to load the 13V zener (555 isn't very power efficient and draws nearly 10mA even when quiescent).



    I know where you're coming from, trying to make do without T2: when building quick gadgets for myself I cut corners all the time. But when making stuff for others to see and use it pays to respect the specifications (unless you weigh up the risks vs cost and decide to trade off reliability - it happens all the time).

    [I'm assuming BTW you're able to resolve your problems with imageshack.us domain.]

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    Quote Originally Posted by gw1 View Post
    I know where you're coming from, trying to make do without T2: when building quick gadgets for myself I cut corners all the time. But when making stuff for others to see and use it pays to respect the specifications (unless you weigh up the risks vs cost and decide to trade off reliability - it happens all the time).
    Yes, I understand.
    Latter i will switch the T2 NPN to a PNP one.

    Quote Originally Posted by gw1 View Post
    [I'm assuming BTW you're able to resolve your problems with imageshack.us domain.]
    Yes, i've just removed the opendns IP's from my router and put my provider ones.

    I will finish this tomorrow, need some sleep.

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    Quote Originally Posted by msay View Post
    Yes, I understand. Latter i will switch the T2 NPN to a PNP one.
    Be careful doing so, there's a common mistake there. Because the 13V rail is higher than the entire 0-5V range, a PNP with emitter on 13V will always be on regardless of the 555's state.

    For opposite polarity your best option is to either
    - alter the 555's startup state using the pin 5 trick, or
    - swap all the 4053 x/y pins so that 0=JDM and 1=Phoenix.
    The latter unfortunately would mean major rerouting

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    Quote Originally Posted by gw1 View Post
    Be careful doing so, there's a common mistake there. Because the 13V rail is higher than the entire 0-5V range, a PNP with emitter on 13V will always be on regardless of the 555's state.

    For opposite polarity your best option is to either
    - alter the 555's startup state using the pin 5 trick, or
    - swap all the 4053 x/y pins so that 0=JDM and 1=Phoenix.
    The latter unfortunately would mean major rerouting
    Hehehe!!

    Oh boy, i was going to bed

    I know an very old phrase, "never do something that requires your attention if you are tired". Sorry, i've missed the 555 trick that i've told you before, much more easy to invert the 555 state.

    Thank you for that.

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    Hi gw1!

    I did some changes as you suggested, removed some ground plane bottle neck's, the board now is a little wider to accommodate this changes, i just couldn't add the jumper in to the design, nothing that a piece of wire can't take care of.

    Thanks for the lesson, i really don't understand about this stuff, is my first time dealing with this.

    I've got on serial cable from a friend, it is a true "serial extension cable", all 9 pins are connected 1-1, 2-2 so on and so forth. Now i'm gonna crash, it's 5:00AM here and i need some rest.

    Thanks gw1.

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    Hey msay.....great work there dude!

    are you running the power supply from a wall socket, or from a usb port? when I built my jaycar I started off using the power from the wall socket but reconifured to the 5v usb power supply as I found it much simpler for my purposes and use!
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    Quote Originally Posted by osci View Post
    Hey msay.....great work there dude!

    are you running the power supply from a wall socket, or from a usb port? when I built my jaycar I started off using the power from the wall socket but reconifured to the 5v usb power supply as I found it much simpler for my purposes and use!
    Thanks, i'm using wall socket.
    I don't think that this could be a good idea for this project because the interface alone (doing nothing) consumes 68ma, don't know how much this can go when you program a card. USB ports are design to handle no more than 100ma.

    Thanks for the idea!

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    The 555 trick, doesn't work.
    It work for the 555 but not for T2, ideas?

    I've added two pads near the crystals to ground his metallic body with a small wire.

    I've set everything up, my old server is running windows 2000 pro with , the driver was installed and detect my interface (automatically) at COM2 (defaul is COM1) and i've follow all the jaycar Phoenix MKII ic-prog configuration.

    I couldn't find a cheap blank card, they want about $25 bucks for only 1 card, it get cheaper over 100+, damn. Tomorrow i will go to a security supply store and see what i can find.

    I have my STB card and one from my old bank account that i don't use anymore, there is any program to use to identify what card type i have?

    In the first test with ic-prog and my STB card i could see the data led flash for a few seconds depending on the model that i've choose, but it end up with error that is ok, i don't think any company would leave the "door" wide open to any one just "come in".

    This is it for know.

    It's Carnaval Time!!!

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    Could not find a blank card to play with, so i've downloaded some programs to play with this old nagravision cards that i have (have two of then).

    The communications happens without any erros:

    WinEx 5.42
    Code:
    Trying to reset card...
    Reset Successful
    
    ATR: 3F FF ....... and other crazy strings ...... 
    
    Convention: INVERSE
    Protocol:   T=1 
    TA1 = 95 
    TA2 = 81 
    TA3 = FE 
    TB1 = 00
    TB2 = 47
    TC1 = FF
    TC2 = 00
    TCK = 65  Calculated TCK = 65
    
    Historical Bytes: 44 4E 41 53 50 31 31 30 20 52 65 76 41 43 33 
                       D  N  A  S  P  1  1  0     R  e  v  A  C  3 
    
    Programming Voltage = 7.1 volts
    Programming Current = 25ma
    Maximum Clock Frequency = 5.0MHz
    
    Assuming a 3.5790MHz clock:
    Work ETU = 0.0000089410 seconds
    Guard Time = 0.0000983515 seconds
    Baud Rate After Reset = 111844
    Nagraedit v5.2
    Code:
    Opening COM2.
    ATR String: 3F FF ..... more crazy strings .....
                ROM ID: DNASP110  (unknown)
                REV ID: RevAC3
    Error, unsupported card type
    Closing COM2.
    Other programs like NagraMaster and other related are working fine with my interface, no errors or time out.
    Last edited by msay; 22-02-09 at 08:45 AM.

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    This is the last design:



    And as promised here is the full schematic (rev.04) and board design:


    The way i do to print the design is loading the PDF in programs like Photoshop at a resolution of 600dpi than print with a laser printer. I never use a PCB house to build my boards, but if anyone need specific files to sent to this PCB makers, pass me the instructions to produce this files on EAGLE that i post then here.

    Thanks gw1, i will be monitoring the topic from time to time.

    Bye!

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    Great stuff msay. (and gw1 of course)
    Thanks for sharing

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    My suggestion of jumper link to improve card socket power decoupling was just for your prototype. For your next PCB revision I suggest, rather than a jumper link, simply reroute your +5V as shown below. You don't need the jumper link at all (and the link's inductance is undesirable).



    The 555 trick doesn't work. It work for the 555 but not for T2
    When transistor T2 isn't used, if you place a capacitor from pin 5 to GND it seeds the startup state one way, and if you instead place the capacitor between pin 5 and pin 8 (+5V) it seeds the startup state the other way. Yes?

    If that is so, there's no reason the seeding mechanism shouldn't work even when T2 is present. You'll need to pull pin 5 in the opposite direction to before though, because of T2's inverting effect!

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