Reply With Quotez80 (03-06-09)
Originally Posted by dogsbreath
I had never heard of CEEG until I read this thread and I have been playing around with this stuff for a few years. , Doesn't mean they are no good though.
You really need to read the fine print when it comes to PV module warranty , it's not a replacement warranty like it is made out to imply , it's more a warranty that the module with produce a certain percentage of it's rated output on a sliding scale until 25 years is reached., the replacement warranty varies greatly between different manufacturers so do some research.
Government may take up to 8 weeks , should read will take minimum of 8 weeks and then start waiting to receive grant.
The pre-approval process normally takes about 3 weeks.
The money is paid into your specified account and you can be notified when the funds have been deposited.
First they will give you pre-approval of the funding and will only pay the 8000 once the job is complete and notice of completion has been sent to them.
Dont worry they dont hand out this 8K on anyones word , they required your signature of completion , the installers signature and must be accredited , the system has to be connected to the grid, photos of the installation with wide shots showing it is your actual residence it is installed at.
The completion paper work has to contain these photo's ( at least 3 non digital photo's ) connection completed paper work from energy provider , complete and detailed technical drawing of layout and specifications , complete detailed itemized invoices showing all components , labor , design costs less GST etc .
Any mistakes or anything missing no questions are asked it is all sent back and the waiting process starts all over again.
z80 (03-06-09)
A not too distant installer to me has added the following page to his website
My main worries with this NuEnergy offer are -
Loosing $2500 and getting nothing.
What starts out as a bargain slowly gets eroded away as they cite additional unexpected costs during installation eventually consuming the $2500 which will just about get me a setup locally with panels of a known quality.
Panels die (the main $ part of the installation) after a short period say 5years and it all becomes a roof ornament because of the lack of ongoing support.
They take the full 9 months to do the install because they couldn't cope with the numbers - all this time they have your $2500 or they don't get it done in 9 months and the rebate lapses.
Another local supplier has also warned me that the current rebate may finish up early - rumours have it possibly being stopped by May12.
Well I guess I am a thrill seeker and will find out. I’ve been to there office in Melbourne and they have a wall full of registration certificates re installation and design and they were interviewing installers as well. There tech area had lots of plans and gear lying around and there was a warehouse out back full of stuff. I am working on the basis if they don’t deliver I could reverse the card transaction all the receipts and paper work come out of there office in Tasmania.
Any add on charges are listed on a sheet the only one I need worry about is $120.00 for tiled roof fitting. There was other stuff like flat roof, lifting gear for high roof’s and stuff like that.
I am looking at this as something for nothing effectively although I am planning on a bigger inverter and perhaps some extra panels which will be based on a cost benefit analysis.
As it stands I have a minimal amount to recoup before the system is profitable. The majority of other vendors are asking for around $3000 in addition to the grant which means years of operation before you break even.
Good information posted by dogbreaths friend Solar Shane! , I wouldn't use anything other than SunTech panels on my own system because a majority of the designing was with Harsh Australian conditions considered.
As Shane pointed out the difference in construction of Suntech panels compared to a lot of imports I have seen is dramatic.
I could have easily saved $5000 on my panels if I went for some of these unknown brands , but when you divide the extra cost over 25years it becomes very minimal , Also the Suntech panels do perform well on cloudy days as well while others might as well be upside down.
Always remember and this is rarely every discussed , A PV system is not a back up system , if your power fails the PV instantly goes offline and cant be used.
Of course if you get really serious and install a proper backup system the PV can be utilized during blackouts but this type of setup is very expensive.
It doesn't seem to matter how many times I explain this , 99.9% of people think they will have power when the grid fails.
z80 (03-06-09)
I have a backup power system.
A few UPS systems including a 4 KVA and a noisy 2.4 KVA generator mind you it’s not setup as such but could be fired up at short notice if I really wanted.
Not so much now but I was on call for some systems of the sort that cost lots of money if they fail so I needed redundant power if Murphy’s law kicked in and I got a call and the power failed.
The intention of the solar system is to reduce my spend on electricity not as a power fail backup.
Let’s say I spend say $3000 to $5000 extra and get say BP solar panels which sell at a premium price and they last 25 years. Great. Now consider I get the CEEG panels which are reportedly very good but that fail after 8 years. Other than inconvenience what have I lost.
I would be willing to bet Solar panels will have dramatically improved in energy yield and dropped in price in the future. On the assumption I still live in the house then I could replace the panels with new ones for perhaps less than the $3000 to $5000 extra I need today to go with the BP panels.
I once paid $700.00 for a 40 MB MFM hard drive. 8 years is a long time in terms of technology.
I hope you don't get the impression I am trying to steer you in any direction or choice , just giving you information most people never even consider when going solar.
My honest opinion is that people should never even consider the solar option without first seriously looking at their current power usage and what can be done to reduce it.
Before I installed my system , my usage averaged around 37KWH per Day (37 units). With a lot of research and practical idea's our power usage now averages around 22 KWH Per day , so a massive 15KW per day saving on what was absolute wasted electricity.
You can only expect about 5.5KWH per day from your 1KW system , So in reality I could have installed nearly 3 x 1KW systems to reduce what was being wasted or spend Nothing at all and change things a bit and not waste anything.
My system produces an average of 18KWH per day , I knew before it was installed that none of it would be wasted on wastage usage , so now it reduces our usage / buying to 4 KWH per day.
I would be really surprised if you couldn't save 5.5KWH per day in wasted power , Total investment Zero Dollars.
A friend of mine recently showed me his business power bill for $1156.00 for the month!! He told me he was sick of these huge bills and wanted to put solar panel all over his roof , I did some rough calculations for him and come up with a system to reduce the bill to about $300 per month , but he would need to pay the $230,000 system installation first.
Anyway I convinced him to part with $800 to buy some new light fittings , remove the 3 plugged in but unused commercial fridges , adjust the massive con units to 26 deg from the 21 deg they had always been on.
This months bill was $717.00 , so he saved $455!! but he could have spent around $100,000 for solar that would have achieved the same thing.
Making my own power is a passion , if it never saves me cent I wouldn't care because I am saving tons of carbon emissions and coupled with my full back up system can live without the grid for weeks if necessary.
If your own motivation is to save on your power bill you will end very disappointed as the free options are much more effective.
z80 (03-06-09)
Point taken. My last power bill listed my daily usage as 16 kW per day which was over the summer period so that includes a bore pump to water the garden and AC on really hot days. I really should pull out some of the winter bills but for the last six months I’ve worked from home so my usage will be different. Thus getting even a just a 1 kW solar system for $120 (extra cost of tile roof install) then the payback period on a $120 investment is relatively short as compared to $3000. I’ve opted for a bigger inverter and I will get a new power meter fitted but these costs are not great. I would love to cover the roof in cells but at present it makes more sense to pay for grid power.
A friend has both solar and wind power generation with storage batteries. The solar system is making a measurable benefit but the wind power unit is more of a science experiment generating perhaps a few hundred watts on a good day. He’s on a hill on a large property. The battery storage is pretty cool but each battery cost something like $600 and has a finite life plus to make effective use of these you need to generate surplus power during the day to charge the batteries for night time use so that would involve a larger installation of panels.
When you accept the rebates you are also agreeing to not dismantle the system for 5 years. After that you can throw them on the caravan or whatever even sell them. I don't think they will give you another rebate again though.
With the panels being the main cost of the system I would want something decent. I am considering a Suntech system and paying a bit extra.
I just thought I would add that I have no affiliation with Solarshane, I just found his website whilst researching the nuenergy offer and felt it was pertinent to this discussion.
My first investment in saving electricity is the evacuated tube solar hotwater system that I am getting installed in the next few weeks. This will save me much more than the small 1kw sytem that is next on my list.
Funny you say that , my first major energy saving was a Split Solar / Gas hot water system , it cost $5300 and I got $2900 back in rebates so great investment.
As for the Suntech system the outlay really wont be that much higher but you will thankful down the track
Another great saving idea is to invest about $100 on an energy meter so you can monitor your usage in real time , you find yourself going around the house switching everything off that isn't needed , There is so much stuff in the average house sitting on standby sucking up power.
Old Fridges and Freezers are silent suckers and so many have the old beer/drinks fridges running all year round outside or in the garage /games room.
Spar's and pool pumps are another major user and a simple one often overlooked is a home computer running 24 / 7 will draw 2.4KW per day.
z80 (03-06-09)
Already have a plug in power meter.
My biggest/hardest task is getting the rest of the family into save mode. Teenagers don't tend to appreciate these sorts of things and the money for the bills doesn't come out of their pockets. When the green loans come in I will seriusly look at double glazed windows.
Will also look at putting a switch panel in the house so that I can turn off the bulk of the power points at night and when going out as the kids leave everything turned on or plugged in. With most power points behind cupboards or under beds things don't get turned off very often. Tried remote control power point adapters but found they lost their programming every time we had a power flick plus the kids would rip them out as they did with the timers i tried.
Sorry for highjacking your thread SystemRat -starting to digress from the core topic.
Was told by the Nuenergy marketing consultant, Amber I think her name was, that they did not recommend the 2kw inverter with the 1kw system as they had experienced around 10% additional loss. They quoted me $1200 for the upgrade but said that I would be better off going to the 1.5kw system for an additional $3600. The upgrade to the 1.5kw inveter was quoted at $360.
I don't have a lot of North facing roof real estate so I am limited to the 1kw system anyway.
Last edited by dogsbreath; 03-05-09 at 11:58 PM.
More players.
While watching TV tonight an ad pop up for this mob for a free solar install. I had a look at their site and it has no detail of the offer. Clicking on the free solar button takes you to a form to order it. They ask for a refundable deposit of $1599.00.
I guess the average person is perhaps not interested in panel or inverter details but it’s a little worrying there is no detail.
While working in the garage today I heard on the radio a discussion re a new generation of flexible solar panels which will cost far less than the current panels and thus it will be practical to cover a roof in them without going in to debit.
This stuff is just like computers I still have a couple of 486 DX2’s in a box somewhere.
I found some info on the panels they seem ok and are used in the USA and Europe by a number of firms. I was unable to find any negative feedback on them.
NU Energy appears to be a Tasmanian firm. All the receipts and paper work comes via mail from Tasmania
A Dun and Bradstreet report can be had via but it will cost you money.
The Australian securities and investment commission has the following without paying for more detailed info.
First registered 17/07/1993 as Australian Green Energy Technologies
Name change 08/10/2008
Registered name NU Energy Pty Ltd 20/10/2008
Again if you pay money you will get more info.
Solar what if calculations
Based on 1 KW of panels
SB1100
SB1700
SB2500
The transformer less SB3000TL which is a 3 KW inverter is effective for 1 KW of panels I am checking on its avalability in Oz.
There was another mob with an $899 offer on TV in Vict the other night. Did anybody catch their details?
Thanks to all in this forum.
It has opened my eyes to the good and bad about Solar Panel Installation.
I will contact a few local companys around Adelaide to get there quotes for a Solar System.
Ed
Hi everyone.
Great information, has made me think about the different options.
There are several companies offering free systems:
http://www.clearsolar.com.au/offer.php
http://www.nuenergy.com.au/pvsolar.php
http://www.beyondbuildingenergy.com/
http://www.ecovation.com.au/
You all know about the nuenergy offer. Here's some info on the others:
BeyondBuilding:
1kw = $0 cost (Inverter - Sunnyboy SB1100 >93% efficiency)
2kw = $495 cost (Inverter - SEA Orion 2.2kw >95% efficiency)
Panels: SkyGlobal (Europe) 6x170w - Efficiency: ???, 90% output at 10years, 80% output at 25years
Tiled roof extra $150
Total duration, about 30 weeks.
Need to pay $8000 upfront when gov rebate approved. Gov will pay back on completion of job.
Cancellation fee $200
REC's signed over to them
Total cost: $0 + for tiled roof + for inverter upgrade + $8000 up front
Ecovation:
To get the free solar power system you need to buy a solar or heat pump hot water system for $1250 (after rebates).
Need to pay $2550 upfront when gov rebate approved. Gov will pay back on completion of job.
Both hot water systems seem good.
For the Solar power system:
Inverter - CMS2000 2.2kw >96% efficiency
Panels: CEEG 6x170w - Efficiency: 15.9%, 90% output at 10years, 80% output at 25years
Tiled roof extra $245
Total duration, about 30 weeks.
Need to pay $8000 upfront when gov rebate approved. Gov will pay back on completion of job.
Cancellation: Can cancel after onsite inspection and get full refund.
REC's signed over to them
Total cost: $1250 + for tiled roof + $10550 up front
Clear Solar:
Inverter choice 1 - Latronics PVE1200 1.2kw >93% efficiency
Inverter choice 2 - Sunnyboy SB1100 1.1kw >93% efficiency
Inverter choice 3 - CMS2000 2.2kw >96% efficiency
Panels: Nesl DJ-170D 6x170w - Efficiency: ???, 90% Output at 10years and 80% at 25years
Tiled roof extra $400
Total duration, about 30 weeks.
Cancellation: Can cancel after onsite inspection and get full refund.
REC's - DON'T have to sign over
Total cost:
Inverter 1 - $250 + for tiled roof
Inverter 1 - $1000 + for tiled roof
Inverter 1 - $1250 + for tiled roof
If you don't sign over the REC's to them (22 units for a 1kw system) you will pay an extra $1450. So from what I can gather, they will be selling the REC's later for at least $1450. By Keeping them you can sell them at what ever the going REC rate is. Sounds like this rate will increase in the near future. Having said that, other companies say that the REC's are worth about $800 now. So if my logic is right, Clear Solar are charging you extra for the loss they will make by you not signing over the REC's to them. On the upshot, the REC's may be worth more in the future when you sell them. Who knows!!!
Notes:
- some of the inverters are indoor models.
- The panels are rated at 90% output at 10years and 80% output at 25years as per the contracts/terms and conditions. Its interesting that some of the datasheets for these panels show that the output will be 80% at 20years. Which do you believe?
I think its not worth getting a bigger system unless you plan to add panels at time of installation (too many complications after). Though the 2kw inverter deals allow you to add a whole array to the system in the future.
I've also heard that when the new scheme starts, you'll be able to buy another system under the new scheme so it may be better to save some money now and just get another system later if needed.
So with the above info, plus Nuenergy's offer, which do you think is the best?
A question. Do you have to sell excess power to the grid ? Personally I would rather waste it than sell it for bugger all for the power companies to sell at full price to someone else ( if I am reading it correctly )
I was wondering about that too. By design the grid connect solar inverter must have mains power present to run as a safety feature for linesmen so you’re not pumping volts on to a line they believe is isolated. There are other solar inverters which are for standalone systems but these inverters and by extension system are not covered by the grant.
One feature of the feed in tariff that concerns me is some of the power company have an administration charge allegedly to cover the cost of crediting you for your power generation. Thus you need to produce enough power to pay that fee and pay for the meter update before you see a return on feed in.
The charge was $12.00 per bill on one form I read
One thing I am puzzled by is effectively you have two power sources one being the power companies supply and the other your own solar generated supply. Both are around 240 volts AC effectively you putting both in parallel so when you use electricity the load will draw from both sources equally. Thus you’re perhaps not getting to use 100% of your own power and a part of your power is flowing out to the grid to help run other users equipment.
Assuming a feed in rate of 60 cents per KW you’re making more for the feed in than you’re being charged for by the power company however. The catch 22 is the accounting fee perhaps.
I recently had someone from the power company call around to check out the meter seems they are going to replace them all with smart meters that can be remotely read. I asked does this mean they will also be able to record feed in but the guy did not know. I will try and find the answer to that as it will save me paying for a new meter.
I'd think that as its connected to the grid you won't be able to stop it feeding the grid. Maybe there is a software option on the inverter to not allow it? I'm not sure what would happen if you didn't upgrade your meter. Some meters only read the used power from the grid but I'm not sure if they would stop the grid being fed?
CEEG panels (such as Nuenergy will install)
Hi all, I discovered today that there is a new Aust Standard that apparently lowers the number of panels that now comply under the new standard as fit for Aust conditions.
I phoned Nuenergy and they said that their CEEG SST 170-72 M does comply under the new Standard. However, I spent quite a while tring to find a link the the list of manufactueres and models to verify if that is the case. Has anyone else heard about this and found a link to the new Standard?
Also, Nuenergy have told me that they now only require a $1,000 deposit and that the offer's extended to the end of the month, so there's still plenty of time to get it right.
Cheers.
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