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Thread: Solar Charger feasibility

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    Default Solar Charger feasibility

    I was thinkinking last night about the feasibility of creating a "solar" charging station for my phone / laptops.

    I suppose that i could always buy an inverter to plug my power packs into, but from what i understand (and i am a complete newbie) that is very inefficient.
    So I was thinking that seeing as my laptop is 19.5v 4.62a and my phone is charged off USB (5v i think) then could i set up a 24V solar system and then convert the 24V to the respective voltages more efficiently?

    I guess that if it is possible, how would i do it. - that is connvert the 24 to 19.5v

    Any help / advice / links would be appreciated.



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    Wink Solar Charger Range.

    Quote Originally Posted by alastairw View Post
    I was thinkinking last night about the feasibility of creating a "solar" charging station for my phone / laptops.

    I suppose that i could always buy an inverter to plug my power packs into, but from what i understand (and i am a complete newbie) that is very inefficient.
    So I was thinking that seeing as my laptop is 19.5v 4.62a and my phone is charged off USB (5v i think) then could i set up a 24V solar system and then convert the 24V to the respective voltages more efficiently?

    I guess that if it is possible, how would i do it. - that is connvert the 24 to 19.5v

    Any help / advice / links would be appreciated.

    G'Day Cobber,
    That would be quite feasible, but not very practical as far as your hip pocket is concerned.
    If that is what your laptop requires, you are looking at least a 100 Watt system just to keep it topped up. The voltage is not so important as there are plenty of step up/down circuits available.
    Have a look here for a good range of what's available:

    I see one 110 Watt for $959. Does that scare you? Don't forget to add the peripheral and ancillary equipment that would be needed. I dare say you could find something a little cheaper, but that should give you a ballpark figure.

    Kindest Regards, " The Druid "........
    Last edited by beer4life; 19-05-09 at 01:00 PM. Reason: OK, forgot the link.

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    Quote Originally Posted by alastairw View Post
    I was thinkinking last night about the feasibility of creating a "solar" charging station for my phone / laptops.

    I suppose that i could always buy an inverter to plug my power packs into, but from what i understand (and i am a complete newbie) that is very inefficient.
    So I was thinking that seeing as my laptop is 19.5v 4.62a and my phone is charged off USB (5v i think) then could i set up a 24V solar system and then convert the 24V to the respective voltages more efficiently?
    Charging the laptop in a reasonable amount of time will require a decent sized panel, but for phones and ipods and stuff you could get away with a smaller panel.

    I spotted a 10W monocrystalline panel on special at Rockby's for $80, and am using it for charging NiMHs.

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    I just looked at my laptop charger and it's about 70W too. 20V @3.3A

    A standard 68/80W panel outputs ~21V at ~3.4A.
    All nice while the sun shines.

    A smaller (or larger) panel can be used depending on how much you intend to use your laptop (or leave it on).

    To offset the time that the sun doesn't shine, then the excess energy ends up in the batteries via a regulator.

    A 12V bank would be typical. You can buy step up converters for laptops. They're not cheap, but they're not overly expensive. There is no reason why you can not build your own. A 12V to 24V step up converter isn't overly hard to make. All the parts you can buy from Jaycar.
    A nice big fat torriod, a 10A switching power transistor or FET, a big arse capacitor and diode. A 555 timer running as a PWM oscillator.
    Connect up the 12V, load up the output and turn up the oscillator connected to a multimeter and set it to 24V. Crude and not very reliable. What is needed is a simple feedback circuit to control the output voltage. An LM723 voltage comparitor will do the job nicely.

    You can also buy MAXIM PWM PSU switch mode chips. Just bias the reference voltage for the output you want. If you want a circuit diagram, search for "switchmode BUCK converter".

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    Hmmm... ok in the example of Trash's laptop adaptor - that's 20 v @ 3.3A, but the battery wouldn't require 3.3 amps to charge it.

    That current capability is more for driving the laptop itself off the adaptor assuming the battery is totally flat or not present.

    Most nickel metal hydride and lithium ion battery packs charge satisfactorily on less then 500 mA. A solar panel or array of them would provide that easily.
    You'd just have to make sure the laptop is switched off when charging the batteries.

    Another option is to use solar panels to keep two 12 volt deep cycle batteries (in series to give 24 volts) charged, and build a small regulator to drop it down to 19 volts for your needs.

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    That's right, 3.3A is the maximum that can be expected. Running the computer while charging the internal battery from flat.

    My laptop battery has a rating which I find a little funny. 11.1V / 53Whr.
    (4.77Ahr)

    I can run my laptop for about 3 hours on this battery so it would not be unreasonable to say the computer uses 20W/hr.

    If I use the computer 6 hours a day, then that is a total of 120Whr.
    Two hours of sunlight using an 65W panel (and a good regulator) will be enough to run the computer. A linear regulator loses a lot of power.
    Lets assume an 80W panel and a linear regulator running at 13V to charge the batteries.
    80W / 20V = 4A x 13V = 52W after regulation (that sucks).

    52W x 5 hours of sunlight = 260Whr
    260/20Whr = 13 hours of computer use. (from an 80W panel using linear 7812 regulators. Much better results can be expected from MPPT regulators)

    Of course you could just whack a 20W panel out in the sun and when the sun goes down, so does your computer

    This brings us to the batteries.
    The issue then becomes one of how many batteries you need and how deep should you let them cycle. (discharge)
    A 70% discharge is pretty heavy. Car batteries just won't cut it and they'll be toast in months. Solar batteries are more suited to long and deep cycles where car batteries are best for short high current discharges and imediate rapid recharges. (short deep cycles).
    The less you discharge the batteries the longer the life can be expected.

    Lets assume we use the computer for 6 hours at 24W and 12V.
    This is 2A per hour and 6 hours = 12Ahr.
    28Ahr of batteries is about four alarm type gel cells. Which will give ~50% discharge cycle.

    Back to the panels ... how close can we cut it to the bone with 6 hours use ?
    12Ahr x 12V = 144Whr / 5 hours sunlight = 28.8W.

    So......
    A 30W panel getting 5 hours of sunlight a day using an MPPT type regulator into a 30Ah battery will allow us to use the laptop for 6 hours a day.


    If it rains, you need to use the computer less or get a bigger battery or a bigger panel

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    Quote Originally Posted by trash View Post
    That's right, 3.3A is the maximum that can be expected. Running the computer while charging the internal battery from flat.

    My laptop battery has a rating which I find a little funny. 11.1V / 53Whr.
    (4.77Ahr)

    I can run my laptop for about 3 hours on this battery so it would not be unreasonable to say the computer uses 20W/hr.

    If I use the computer 6 hours a day, then that is a total of 120Whr.
    Two hours of sunlight using an 65W panel (and a good regulator) will be enough to run the computer. A linear regulator loses a lot of power.
    Lets assume an 80W panel and a linear regulator running at 13V to charge the batteries.
    80W / 20V = 4A x 13V = 52W after regulation (that sucks).

    52W x 5 hours of sunlight = 260Whr
    260/20Whr = 13 hours of computer use. (from an 80W panel using linear 7812 regulators. Much better results can be expected from MPPT regulators)

    Of course you could just whack a 20W panel out in the sun and when the sun goes down, so does your computer

    This brings us to the batteries.
    The issue then becomes one of how many batteries you need and how deep should you let them cycle. (discharge)
    A 70% discharge is pretty heavy. Car batteries just won't cut it and they'll be toast in months. Solar batteries are more suited to long and deep cycles where car batteries are best for short high current discharges and imediate rapid recharges. (short deep cycles).
    The less you discharge the batteries the longer the life can be expected.

    Lets assume we use the computer for 6 hours at 24W and 12V.
    This is 2A per hour and 6 hours = 12Ahr.
    28Ahr of batteries is about four alarm type gel cells. Which will give ~50% discharge cycle.

    Back to the panels ... how close can we cut it to the bone with 6 hours use ?
    12Ahr x 12V = 144Whr / 5 hours sunlight = 28.8W.

    So......
    A 30W panel getting 5 hours of sunlight a day using an MPPT type regulator into a 30Ah battery will allow us to use the laptop for 6 hours a day.


    If it rains, you need to use the computer less or get a bigger battery or a bigger panel
    You can't multiply the panel rated output x amount of hrs , unfortunately a 30w panel will only give you 30w in almost laboratory conditions , certainly not real world conditions.
    30W is the absolute maximum output in absolute perfect conditions , maybe about 60 days per year for a couple of hours per day if your lucky.
    Most panel specs quote efficiency figures between 17 and 24 % .

    If I was setting up solar to guarantee this laptop worked everyday all year round for 6 hours per day , it would require at least a 120W panel and 2 x 60 AH Gel or AGM battery in series.
    You would need the Grid connection type panel because open circuit voltage is around 30vdc , fed into a 24V MPP charger.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Joey View Post
    You can't multiply the panel rated output x amount of hrs , unfortunately a 30w panel will only give you 30w in almost laboratory conditions , certainly not real world conditions.
    Welcome to the real world because if you notice the units involve you will see 3 different units. WATTS, HOURS and WATTHOURS.
    watts x hours = watthours.

    30W panel in 5 hours of direct sunlight = 150WattHours.

    30W is the absolute maximum output in absolute perfect conditions , maybe about 60 days per year for a couple of hours per day if your lucky.
    30W is the maximum from the panel, but not the maximum from the batteries.
    There is no reason why higher power can be drawn from the batteries.
    If 150Whr is stored in the batteries every day then the user can use 150W for 1 hour, 75W for 2 hours or 300W for half an hour.

    And just in case you are worried about the hours of sunlight, the example I have used of 5 hours per day is THE average direct sunlight for Sydney per day. Some days have less sunlight and some days have more. This also does not take into account that the panels still produce (less) current even on a cloudy day. As far as statistics are concerned, it's either sunny or not.
    This conservative view is in our favour anyway. If we budget for less power then it will be rare occasions that or system runs flat.

    Most panel specs quote efficiency figures between 17 and 24 % .
    This is irrelevant because the power rating of the panel is what it is capable of delivering. All efficiencies have already been factored in. If the panel is rated at 80W then 80W is what you have to work with. If a linear regulator is used, then any inefficiencies are introduced by the users.

    If I was setting up solar to guarantee this laptop worked everyday all year round for 6 hours per day , it would require at least a 120W panel and 2 x 60 AH Gel or AGM battery in series.
    Not at all, in fact you have a very large overhead in terms of solar, and either a reasonable amount (12V) or overkill (24V) for the battery.

    This is assuming a worst case of using an inverter and the computer's power supply. It's all about how easy one wants to live or how close the bone the user wants to cut their use compared to cost.

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    Trash , I didn't post to argue just sharing real world experiences , quoted figures and theory are worthless when it comes to solar feasibility.
    While your examples are pretty they are coming from a salesman's point of view and exactly what the customer would want to hear.

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    quoted figures and theory are worthless when it comes to solar feasibility
    Oh really ?

    While your examples are pretty they are coming from a salesman's point of view and exactly what the customer would want to hear.
    You're not from this planet are you ?

    My examples might be pretty, it's because I take the time to set out the examples so that anybody with enough interest can understand them.
    They're also pretty because they are real world examples.
    How would I know ? Half of my house runs on solar !

    Salesman ... piss on my leg and tell me it's raining !
    What kind of salesman would give an example of a minimalist system ?
    A salesman would attempt to sell the kind of overkill system you proposed.
    120W = ~$1200 2 x 60Ah batteries = ~$600 Regulator = ~$200
    $2000 ... Not a bad sale, do you work in the industry ?

    Rather than just telling me what you think you know, how about we run the experiment ? I'll disconnect one of my panels from the roof and a string of batteries and run the experiment. Care to duplicate the experiment and attempt to get better results than I can ?

    Anybody care to speculate the minimum amount of solar energy (in watthours), battery storage in Amphours, I will require to power a laptop per hour ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by trash View Post
    Oh really ?



    You're not from this planet are you ?

    My examples might be pretty, it's because I take the time to set out the examples so that anybody with enough interest can understand them.
    They're also pretty because they are real world examples.
    How would I know ? Half of my house runs on solar !

    Salesman ... piss on my leg and tell me it's raining !
    What kind of salesman would give an example of a minimalist system ?
    A salesman would attempt to sell the kind of overkill system you proposed.
    120W = ~$1200 2 x 60Ah batteries = ~$600 Regulator = ~$200
    $2000 ... Not a bad sale, do you work in the industry ?

    Rather than just telling me what you think you know, how about we run the experiment ? I'll disconnect one of my panels from the roof and a string of batteries and run the experiment. Care to duplicate the experiment and attempt to get better results than I can ?

    Anybody care to speculate the minimum amount of solar energy (in watthours), battery storage in Amphours, I will require to power a laptop per hour ?
    No mate I am not going to get into an argument with you or try to prove you wrong , the time and effort you put into helping people is far to valuable.
    There is nothing personal in my posts just a different opinion so if you don't mind keep the personal comments to yourself.

    Anyway I have 2800W of Panels 14 x 200W Panels , according to your calculations how much power did I generate today ?


    As far as consumption and setup to run the average laptop , not sure what you have but those usage figures are very conservative.
    What laptop could be run from a 12 or 13volt system anyway ?

    A 12 volt Gell or AGM needs a charging voltage around 14.4 Volts , so you are going to need a proper MPP regulator / Charger to keep any decent battery working for any length of time. , While you can maintain the 12 Volt battery this way you are not going to be able to supply the average laptop with the needed 18~21volts most require from a single 12volt battery.
    A 24 Volt supply stepped down the 18~21 volts you need would be ideal , so you would need to 24V battery bank.
    The original Poster said his laptop is 19.5 Volts and asked about a 24Volt Solar system so he had the right idea.

    A 30W panel puts out around 18 volts, while this is enough to charge the 12 volt system it's not going to supply enough voltage to charge the 24 Volt batteries so you either put 2 panels in series or a single larger panel ( why I suggested the 120W ) because it can output 31~36 Volts OC , enough to supply a 24Volt MPP charger / Regulator to charge our battery bank.

    I use a Dell Laptop that requires 19.5V charging at very minimum 1.5amps or it reports wrong charger message ., using it without all the power saver options it can be stretched to run for 2 hours so it uses 28WH ( 56WH Battery), The laptop battery voltage is irrelevant in the equation.

    So it needs a minimum 168WH for 6 hours running without allowing for dead flat Charging / Usage at the same time and without allowing for any loses that as you would know are always present .

    So 7AH from the 24V Battery over 6 hours , I would round this off to at least 10 AH allowing for loses , now we want to allow for maximum 50% DOD so we need a 20AH battery , Using my first example I am not cutting to the bone I am being liberal so a 60AH battery bank is only going to last for 18 hours running without a recharge , not much redundancy really and will still run perfectly during the raining and full cloud days , as we both know these can sometimes be weeks at a time.

    As for how much you can get from a 120W panel per day , I only ever calculate worse case scenario's and I know from a lot of playing around with panels that some days you can only get an hours worth of total production , EG: I have got 82WH production from an 80W panel over the entire day., but early summer have produced 515WH for the day from the same panel.

    Just for interest sake I have a full Haze Gel battery bank 720AH@48V 864KG's + all sorts of different Deep Cycle batteries I use for experimenting , Also running the new state of the Art SMA SBU5000 full home backup system.
    It's all fun

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    Default Solar battery charger question

    I have a similar question in regards to a solar laptop charger. I have a Lenovo X200, which requires a DC with 20V/3.25A = 65W. My goal is to have the laptop running on the solar charger alone (if possible). There are several devices that I have found on the Internet. Here are some of the solar chargers that I am thinking of buying:
    1.

    2.

    The first one has a theoretical max output of 24V/4A = 96W.
    The second one has a theoretical max output of 19V/4A = 76W.

    The problem is that none of the voltage and amper options listed for those devices match my laptop requirements. Like I said before, my laptop needs 20V/3.25A (65W). So my questions are these:


    1. Is any of the device above sufficiently powerful to be able to run my laptop on it? This of course assumes enough sunlight to achieve 65W of output.
    2. Is any of the devices above compatible with my laptop requirements? In other words, can I buy some kind of converter that can take something like 24V/4A and reduce it to 20V/3.25A so that I can use it on my laptop?
    3. If the answer to the first question is yes, where can I buy such converter and how much would it cost?
    4. If both devices can power my laptop continuously, which one would you go with, assuming price was not an issue?

    Thanks in advance for your answer.

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    Wink Solar Supply and Regulators for laptop.

    Quote Originally Posted by haidut View Post
    I have a similar question in regards to a solar laptop charger. I have a Lenovo X200, which requires a DC with 20V/3.25A = 65W. My goal is to have the laptop running on the solar charger alone (if possible). There are several devices that I have found on the Internet. Here are some of the solar chargers that I am thinking of buying:
    1.

    2.

    The first one has a theoretical max output of 24V/4A = 96W.
    The second one has a theoretical max output of 19V/4A = 76W.

    The problem is that none of the voltage and amper options listed for those devices match my laptop requirements. Like I said before, my laptop needs 20V/3.25A (65W). So my questions are these:


    1. Is any of the device above sufficiently powerful to be able to run my laptop on it? This of course assumes enough sunlight to achieve 65W of output.
    2. Is any of the devices above compatible with my laptop requirements? In other words, can I buy some kind of converter that can take something like 24V/4A and reduce it to 20V/3.25A so that I can use it on my laptop?
    3. If the answer to the first question is yes, where can I buy such converter and how much would it cost?
    4. If both devices can power my laptop continuously, which one would you go with, assuming price was not an issue?

    Thanks in advance for your answer.

    G'Day Cobber,
    I fell off my stool laughing at the above figures until I found they were quoting the capacity of the internal battery, and not the charge rate.
    If you are away from mains to use the supplied PS/Charger, I s'pose it's an alternative. But a rather expensive one.
    Question 2. A simple 78xx IC Regulator will give 1 Amp and easily adapted with a power transistor for higher currents.




    Kindest Regards, " The Druid ".


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    Quote Originally Posted by Joey View Post
    No mate I am not going to get into an argument with you or try to prove you wrong , the time and effort you put into helping people is far to valuable.
    There is nothing personal in my posts just a different opinion so if you don't mind keep the personal comments to yourself.

    Anyway I have 2800W of Panels 14 x 200W Panels , according to your calculations how much power did I generate today ?


    As far as consumption and setup to run the average laptop , not sure what you have but those usage figures are very conservative.
    What laptop could be run from a 12 or 13volt system anyway ?

    A 12 volt Gell or AGM needs a charging voltage around 14.4 Volts , so you are going to need a proper MPP regulator / Charger to keep any decent battery working for any length of time. , While you can maintain the 12 Volt battery this way you are not going to be able to supply the average laptop with the needed 18~21volts most require from a single 12volt battery.
    A 24 Volt supply stepped down the 18~21 volts you need would be ideal , so you would need to 24V battery bank.
    The original Poster said his laptop is 19.5 Volts and asked about a 24Volt Solar system so he had the right idea.

    A 30W panel puts out around 18 volts, while this is enough to charge the 12 volt system it's not going to supply enough voltage to charge the 24 Volt batteries so you either put 2 panels in series or a single larger panel ( why I suggested the 120W ) because it can output 31~36 Volts OC , enough to supply a 24Volt MPP charger / Regulator to charge our battery bank.

    I use a Dell Laptop that requires 19.5V charging at very minimum 1.5amps or it reports wrong charger message ., using it without all the power saver options it can be stretched to run for 2 hours so it uses 28WH ( 56WH Battery), The laptop battery voltage is irrelevant in the equation.

    So it needs a minimum 168WH for 6 hours running without allowing for dead flat Charging / Usage at the same time and without allowing for any loses that as you would know are always present .

    So 7AH from the 24V Battery over 6 hours , I would round this off to at least 10 AH allowing for loses , now we want to allow for maximum 50% DOD so we need a 20AH battery , Using my first example I am not cutting to the bone I am being liberal so a 60AH battery bank is only going to last for 18 hours running without a recharge , not much redundancy really and will still run perfectly during the raining and full cloud days , as we both know these can sometimes be weeks at a time.

    As for how much you can get from a 120W panel per day , I only ever calculate worse case scenario's and I know from a lot of playing around with panels that some days you can only get an hours worth of total production , EG: I have got 82WH production from an 80W panel over the entire day., but early summer have produced 515WH for the day from the same panel.

    Just for interest sake I have a full Haze Gel battery bank 720AH@48V 864KG's + all sorts of different Deep Cycle batteries I use for experimenting , Also running the new state of the Art SMA SBU5000 full home backup system.
    It's all fun
    G'Day Joey,
    You're way out of your depth here!
    Have you never heard of Charge Pump or Voltage Boosting.
    It's a simple circuit to boost a low DC source to a higher voltage DC output.
    Believe you me Cobber, a little knowledge can be dangerous in the hands of the inept. My advice,
    " Don't take trash to task. "
    PS:
    Anyway I have 2800W of Panels 14 x 200W Panels , according to your calculations how much power did I generate today ?
    So much depends on various factors which you have not given, I would hazard a guess of 5 to 7 KW.

    Last edited by beer4life; 06-06-11 at 03:07 AM.

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