Working for myself whilst still working full time

[keef82]

What was I stealing ? I got the customer to contact Chb & gave them the opportunity to meet the needes of that customer at a price he would accept. Can you tell me why they would quote $300 for an extra PIR when I was on site already. They obviously didn't want the work & I did. The customer had refused their price before I would give them my card. ie the work WAS NOT going to them regardless. What makes you think I was representing them ? I was purely providing labour. My tools , my vehicle & no Chb insignia. They tried to get me to wear their shirt & when I asked if they were trying to make out I was an employee , they let the matter drop.
@ balun - you speak of things about which you have no knowledge. What employment contract , there was none. Illegal practices - please explain ! Charged with theft - what did I steal ?
What I saw from the moment I entered this industry was the number of lying , incompetant , price inflating morons who have been around since the year dot. This is mainly the long established , larger companies who trade on their previous reputations from when they had market dominance. Want some examples ?

1) A certain ex market leader W who would tell clients that the alarm panel needed updating every 5 years or they would not be covered by insurance.
2) The same ex market leader W who bribed Telstra workers to do illegal cabling in a certain Newcastle Telephone exchange. The Telstra workers lost their jobs & were charged while W suffered no consequences.
3) Security company wanting to pay by the minute for time on the job only. Would you like to drive 40 km round trip only to get paid for 5 minutes for changing a battery ?
4) Security company supplying 2nd hand equipment as new.
5) Security company insisting all monitored domestic panels have opens/close & daily test.



I could go on. Don't put shit on me , I've paid my dues !

All of the above sounds like rumors to me. where is the proof ?
ponint 5 is common though, stupid dialer rebates..

[watchdog]

All of the above sounds like rumors to me. where is the proof ?
ponint 5 is common though, stupid dialer rebates..

What proof would satisfy you.
1) I personnaly know an employee of the said company who told me a long time ago that was what he had to do . He kept the old panels and re-installed them making a fortune in the process. OK 2nd hand infomation
2) I was working at that exchange (not involved) at the time of the event - 1st hand infomation
3) I was the party they tried to pull this on - ended up in court & I won - 1st hand information
4) I do his work for him. He's still doing it but only for bartercard jobs - ist hand information
5) yes it is common & whenever I find it I make the customer aware of the situation regardless of who I'm doing work for. I should not be required to be compliciant in dishonest deeds.

It seems more like you may be the one who is resisting the ethical upgrade of the industry. I suppose it depends on whos welfare you support - the consumer or the supplier

[keef82]

What proof would satisfy you.
1) I personnaly know an employee of the said company who told me a long time ago that was what he had to do . He kept the old panels and re-installed them making a fortune in the process. OK 2nd hand infomation
2) I was working at that exchange (not involved) at the time of the event - 1st hand infomation
3) I was the party they tried to pull this on - ended up in court & I won - 1st hand information
4) I do his work for him. He's still doing it but only for bartercard jobs - ist hand information
5) yes it is common & whenever I find it I make the customer aware of the situation regardless of who I'm doing work for. I should not be required to be compliciant in dishonest deeds.

It seems more like you may be the one who is resisting the ethical upgrade of the industry. I suppose it depends on whos welfare you support - the consumer or the supplier

hang on, haha, how does this turn around on me ?
Whatever mate, do as you please.

[watchdog]

All of the above sounds like rumors to me. where is the proof ?
ponint 5 is common though, stupid dialer rebates..

I ask again - what proof do you require ?

5) Standard practice across the telecommunications industry. Buy capacity at wholesale & sell it on at retail , there is nothing special about the security industry.
None of these accusations of theft , fraud etc against me are yet to be substantiated by any of the accusers. I maintain that I identified a need that was not being met & met it. Please someone justify the $300 for one PIR & I may just concede I may be wrong

[admin]

But arent a lot of you contractors ? I could make a comparison if you like to Foxtel installers.

They do work primarily for Foxtel , but arent employees. They dont wear their shirts or uniform. If you want an extra outlet you can guarantee it is going to be cash in their pocket because they have to buy their own supplies ( wallplates , cable , dishes etc )

Right or wrong , it happens in many industries.

[balun]

you haven't answered my questions.

All of our employees sign contracts including subbys, in my opinion you stole company infomation to benifit your self.

Did CHB not require you to sign a contract to work as a subby?

[watchdog]

Did CHB not require you to sign a contract to work as a subby?

No they didn't & I still don't see what I have stolen. The opportunity for Chb to meet this customers need went unsatisfied. I could meet this need & did so.
It's a bit like someone starving but told they are not allowed to touch the food I am throwing in the bin. Hey if you don't want it & I do - well thanks very much. And while were still at it , I don't charge $300 to put in one PIR !

[keef82]

No they didn't & I still don't see what I have stolen. The opportunity for Chb to meet this customers need went unsatisfied. I could meet this need & did so.
It's a bit like someone starving but told they are not allowed to touch the food I am throwing in the bin. Hey if you don't want it & I do - well thanks very much. And while were still at it , I don't charge $300 to put in one PIR !

You cant see what you did wrong ?
Well you'll never understand mate.

You were requested by a company to provide an installation service to one of their clients, like it or not, that $300 charge was the price, you should have told the client the price, yes i can do it now while im here, if they did not want the additional detector due to the cost, you walk away.

You were representing that company, and had NO right to leave your card and come back and do the work, NONE.

Stop trying to compare it with other "excuses" and "examples" it was wrong.
C'mon dude?

[watchdog]

, if they did not want the additional detector due to the cost, you walk away.

?

I'm obviously missing something here, lets take it point by point-

1) I am not representing them , I've been contracted to do a specified job at a specified rate of pay - end of story
2) I identify serious shortcomings in the layout of the system sold to them (sales people eh )
3) I direct them to ring the office to find out the cost to rtectify the said shortcoming while on site (thinking it would cut down the cost)
4) They get quoted an absolutely rediculous price & refuse it. This is were I'd say my moral obligation ends. I figure that Chb don't care that that this customer has serious shortcomings in the system they have sold him. But I do.
5) Chb obviously don't want the work but I do
6) Chb don't seem to be willing to help you but I do

Lets face it Chb seem to have a death wish concerning their business & its been going on for a couple of years.
I owe them nothing - they would sooner piss on you than pay you & I've never met a contractor for them who would say otherwise. I still do contract work for half a dozen smaller companies & we get along just fine. It's the big ones that are the problem & it's probably been like that since year 1 & not just in this industry. Keef I admire your loyalty but I would love to see you out in the real world.

[balun]

have a look at the snipits from one of our employment contracts, subbys contract is very similar. Its all very common sense stuff.

Just because you don't sign a contract certain things are still a no go area, like soliciting your employers client.

[Arbiter]

I have to agree with keef82/balun - if it wasn't for CHB feeding you the lead you would never have had the opportunity to back-door them.
Whether they quoted $300 or $3,000,000 for a PIR is irrelevent.
Be they good/bad/indifferent is also irrelevent - you were working for them at the time.
Pretty sure any magistrate/judge would view it this way too.
Surely, at some point, your conscience whispered "I'm pinching this job from my employer", no matter how ridiculous the quote was.
Two wrongs will never make a right.

[intelliGEORGE]

Hey there!
I have been in the industry for 10 years or so. Finally starting to do a bit too much cash work to go un noticed. So i was wondering, do i need a master licence to do work on weekends? I have an ABN and was thinking of registering a business name. Do ineed to go through all the rigmoral to get a master licence and become a member of ASIAL and all that stuff? Any help and advice will be greatley appreciated!
If i get a master licence do i then have to notify my boss now that i have one or can i work under 2 master licences, his one when i work for him and my own if i apply when i work weekends???
I would like to do the right thing and not cause myself any trouble with the law. I have all the appropriate licences to service and install alarms and telephone cabling and all that but do i need that master licence to work weekends legitamitly???

Cheeers

Back to the original poster. Membership with a body like Asial or Neca, ACMA Cablers Licence, relevant business docs and a master licence and good luck to you. I hope your business kicks off well. We all started somewhere. Be it a plumber, electrician or security tech, we all started our businesses working weekends and afternoons. The first 18 months will be tough but good work and service should see you through that. My only advice is, before you bite the bullet and leave, make sure you have 3 months or more wages up your sleve to get you through the initial stages (30 day payments etc) and setup your accounts with the suppliers too. Once again, all the best.

[watchdog]

OK I give up. You see something not right & try to get it fixed. The people responsible for the problem are not interested so you fix it yourself. Probably depends from which side of the fence you are looking from. For keef & balun it is interesting that neither of them seem to want to address the problem from the customers point of view especially when you both talk so much about properly designed & installed systems. They would happily take the money & leave a system with major deficiencies. FFS the profit has been made can't you do ANYTHING out of goodwill ?

[rotor138]

Had you not offered to do the work at a reduced rate they may after thinking about it taken up Chubb's quote. You offering to do it cheaper has taken away the chance that that may of happened. If they rang around and happened to find you in the phone book it would be a different story and they would be then considered fair game.

[keef82]

Exactly, point has been made guys.
As for your comment on the "real world" you know nothing of me, where i have / do work e.t.c so i'll let that one slide

[watchdog]

Had you not offered to do the work at a reduced rate they may after thinking about it taken up Chubb's quote. You offering to do it cheaper has taken away the chance that that may of happened. If they rang around and happened to find you in the phone book it would be a different story and they would be then considered fair game.

Well I reckon that after telling them the work was there & needed doing & them quoting a price that made it obvious that they weren't interested - then they were fair game. The initial quote four a 5 detector system was $1580 , come on the customer is not stupid.

Balun - nice employment contract but written soley for the benefit of the employer. Nothing about the employer's responsibilities like selling unsuitable equipment at grossly inflated prices , contempt for their customers , requiring staff to participate in questionable practices ? There is a long history of people in this industry try to make a quick megabuck & some of them are in gaol. At the end of the day the respect of my competitors is not important to me only the respect of my customers.

[rotor138]

Well I reckon that after telling them the work was there & needed doing & them quoting a price that made it obvious that they weren't interested - then they were fair game. The initial quote four a 5 detector system was $1580 , come on the customer is not stupid.

Balun - nice employment contract but written soley for the benefit of the employer. Nothing about the employer's responsibilities like selling unsuitable equipment at grossly inflated prices , contempt for their customers , requiring staff to participate in questionable practices ? There is a long history of people in this industry try to make a quick megabuck & some of them are in gaol. At the end of the day the respect of my competitors is not important to me only the respect of my customers.

You say grossly inflated prices but what are your overheads compared to a corporate company such as Chubb, ADT, Signature etc.

I am a big fan of smaller companies although currently employed by a large corporate and understand that trying to gain customers is hard work. Maybe next time think about what you are admitting to on the internet as anything that even could be contemplated as being even slightly unethical is going to be jumped all over and made a big deal of especially round here .

[bss904]

Well I reckon that after telling them the work was there & needed doing & them quoting a price that made it obvious that they weren't interested - then they were fair game. The initial quote four a 5 detector system was $1580 , come on the customer is not stupid.

Obviously the customer thought the original quote was ok and suited their needs because they ok'd the quote had the job done. If they thought it was over the top then they would of sought other quotes and had someone else do the job.

At the end of the day the respect of my competitors is not important to me only the respect of my customers.

Could agree with you more, except the customer was not yours in the first place.
You were doing the job as a subby for another company and what you have done has crossed the line. Whether you were looking at the customers best interests or not it was wrong. Maybe you should of considered talking to the original sales rep of the job and convinced him to supply a better price to the customer for the vari and it would of been a win win situation for everyone. Instead you undercut them and took that work away from the hand that was feeding you. You could not of been to worried about the original companies ethics as you were subbying to them for your work already.

watchdog, put the shoe on the other foot and have a subby do the same to you and your business in the name of looking after your customer as justification.
Be honest, would you be happy ?
I bet you that subby would not be working for you after you found out.

Balun - nice employment contract but written soley for the benefit of the employer.

If you don't like the contract you have a simple choice. Don't sign, move on and work elsewhere or for yourself. Contracts are put in place for a reason. No-one can force you to sign a contract.

[bss904]

I'm obviously missing something here, lets take it point by point-

1) I am not representing them , I've been contracted to do a specified job at a specified rate of pay - end of story

Whist you are subbying to a company doing that job you are representing them as their agent and have an obligation to act in an appropriate manner.

2) I identify serious shortcomings in the layout of the system sold to them (sales people eh )

Your response should be to contact the sales person and have a disscussion regarding your concerns and then what can be done to recify the situation. Unless you were originally involved with the sale you have no idea what was discussed with the customer or the reasons behind the design. A simple phone call might of clarified the situation.

3) I direct them to ring the office to find out the cost to rtectify the said shortcoming while on site (thinking it would cut down the cost)
4) They get quoted an absolutely rediculous price & refuse it. This is were I'd say my moral obligation ends. I figure that Chb don't care that that this customer has serious shortcomings in the system they have sold him. But I do.

A quote to fix the quote!
Not the best method to solve problems on day of the installation. Diplomacy might of been a better tact for all involved.
It is obvious that you do care about the customer but there is a right way to go about it and sticking the knife in whilst on site is not the correct way.

You still had other avenues available to you if the sales person was not able or willing to try and rectify the problems. Hint......he has bosses, and the bosses have bosses.

[watchdog]

If I hadn't referred it on to get a cost to rectify the problem I could understand your point of view. But I did & Chb wouldn't or couldn't give a reasonable price to resolve the problem. They obviously didn't care about the standard of the system they sold him. I can't fathom why they would want $300 for an RX40 , 10m of cable & 15 minutes of time when I was already on site. The situation simply wouldn't have occurred it they cared about the customer. Simply put it was me that wasn't prepared to leave the customer with a sub standard alarm. It seems that a lot of people don't care about customer satisfaction.

Fk - shoot me for caring !

I gather that all my critics would have washed their hands of it & walked out saying it's not my problem.