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    Default What if !

    Columbus Laboratory Installed on Space Station



    This has a lab for biology based experiments.

    What if we test a few virus's or microbes or whatever and some leakage occurs as is to be expected. Most will be killed off in the conditions of space but there will be a few which survive and later thrive.

    In another Billion years time when we have long gone one little something may say to millions of other little somethings . What is the origin of life?

    They could never imagine.



Look Here ->
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    One can only hope that any such life doesn't attribute its origins to some imaginary god as many silly humans do.

    If they don't say "goddidit" they will advance more easily in science, unbridled by religious dogma as humans unfortunately are.

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    Hangon just a tick, I'm that imaginary god !

    Anyhow, what Tytower is sort of describing has a scientific name.
    It's called "bootstraping".

    Lets just say that life in this solar system did not actually start here on Earth.
    Instead, it formed on mars. One day a big arse comet hits Mars and shit gets thrown into space from the impact. Some of those rocks just happen to have some rather stubborn microbes in them. They manage to ride out a couple of hundred or thousand years in space before their tiny hunk of rock reaches another planet like Earth. They survive the impact and then populate the earth, along the way they mutate a little and before you know it, a couple of million years later the decendants of those microbes are sending space ships home to see if any of their relatives are still alive.

    There are a couple of different versions of boostraping, but the one I've just described is thought to have a half decent chance of happening.

    Another example of the same thing which we do concern ourselves with is probe missions to the moons of Jupiter, particularly Europa.
    If we send a probe, we want it to be sterrile. We wouldn't want to send a probe contaminate the moon with Earth born microbes, only to launch a mission in the future sometime to find nothing but Earth microbes have wiped out native life forms. Doh !

    I do not know the measures taken to sterrilise the Viking missions, but there may actually already be life on mars, but not the kind we're looking for.

    Viruses are not good vectors for life in space as most require specific hosts.
    If an alien virus were to turn up on earth, it's unlikely that it would have the correct toolkit of protiens or DNA/RNA sequences to replicate.
    Bacteria on the other hand don't require anything but a food source, and they can be very difficult to irradicate. Bacteria live almost everywhere on Earth.

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    What is with the comet's tail?

    Comets are supposed to be composed of organic matter and water, and when near the sun could be a mass breeding ground for bacteria including many mutations from all the radiation. Tails come close enough to planets to catch some of these microbes in their atmosphere and 'Bing':
    planet is populated !
    I don't think they will heat up so much while they slow down. With so little mass it might not have enough kinetic energy to destroy itself when it enters our atmosphere and eventually gently float to the planet's surface.

    Could be happening all the time, here and elsewhere.

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    Not sure that comets are a good basis for the building blocks of life, nor as a source of a bootstrap.

    It's then a question of what is required for life to get a kickstart.
    Volcanic activity, electrical arcs in an atmosphere and of course, the right elements. (Nitrogen, Carbon, Hydrogen, Oxygen, Phosphorus, Sulphur).
    If these are the pre-requisits for life, then they might be a little scarce on comets.

    One would think that planets and moons large enough to hold a liquid or gas would be the only places suitable for starting life. Even large comets start their life in the ort cloud or Kuiper belt around a solar system, and would be in a state of constant deep freeze, which isn't ideal if liquids are prerequisite for life.

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    TRASH I would take another closer look at comets as a possible origin of life,
    others have thought about it too:


    Although they speak of collision with the planets, what would stop amino acids that could be in the huge streams of dust that is emitted from comets from entering into the planet's atmosphere.
    These dust bunnies can be over 150million km in diameter, so plenty of planets could have been seminated with these building blocks of life.

    My idea went a bit further as bacteria could be formed and survive in the core of the comet where the ice could melt when the comet comes close enough to the sun. I assumed further that this water could eventually build up pressure and burst out like a geyser carrying the bacteria with it.

    From Wiki:
    Comets are composed of rock, dust, water ice, and frozen gases such as carbon monoxide, carbon dioxide, methane and ammonia.They are often popularly described as "dirty snowballs", though recent observations have revealed dry dusty or rocky surfaces, suggesting that the ices are hidden beneath the crust. Comets also contain a variety of organic compounds; in addition to the gases already mentioned, these may include methanol, hydrogen cyanide, formaldehyde, ethanol and ethane, and perhaps more complex molecules such as long-chain hydrocarbons and amino acids.

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    Don't confuse amino acids with life. There's a very big gap between the two.
    Dispersing materials or protiens isn't bootstraping.
    Many of the chemicals you mention weren't formed in or by the comet, they are accumulated from the nebula that the ort objects formed from.
    A bit like suggesting that bricks form in a building rather than being manufatured else where and then moved to make up the building.

    Bootstraping by definition life must have established itself in one place and then be moved to another where it gets a new foothold.

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    Also it is not life as we know it until one of the cells produced can reproduce an identical or almost copy of itself. Both having the ability to do it again. Thats the miracle part. Doesn't matter what comes after that.

    Then there is a big space until it becomes aware of itself . A sentient mind

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    A tree is alive, but it doesn't have a brain or thought.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tytower View Post
    Also it is not life as we know it until one of the cells produced can reproduce an identical or almost copy of itself. Both having the ability to do it again. Thats the miracle part. Doesn't matter what comes after that.
    A computer virus can do that too

    Quote Originally Posted by trash View Post
    A tree is alive, but it doesn't have a brain or thought.
    Quote Originally Posted by tytower View Post
    Then there is a big space until it becomes aware of itself . A sentient mind
    Yes indeed, but perhaps a tree might be capable of that one day in a few million years or sooner if we help with a bit of GM.

    Quote Originally Posted by trash View Post
    Don't confuse amino acids with life. There's a very big gap between the two.
    Dispersing materials or protiens isn't bootstraping.
    Many of the chemicals you mention weren't formed in or by the comet, they are accumulated from the nebula that the ort objects formed from.
    A bit like suggesting that bricks form in a building rather than being manufatured else where and then moved to make up the building.

    Bootstraping by definition life must have established itself in one place and then be moved to another where it gets a new foothold.
    OK, but if a comet accumulated water, why can't it have accumulated 'contaminated' water with bacteria, alge, at least spores?
    It is suggested that the Oort cloud from where many comets are believed to have formed was originally much closer to the sun.
    Overlap and interaction with similar formations of other star systems is also thought to be possible.


    On the other hand amino acids ARE the building blocks of life.
    There are countless theories how life may have developed from these but nobody really KNOWS.
    For millions of years a comet may have been travelling back and forth to our sun, warming up and cooling down, picking up UV and other radiation, undergoing different gravitational forces, pressure from heating up, etc.
    What I am trying to say is that on a comet a lot of things happen and change the whole time unlike a planet that is always far away from it's sun.
    That is why I am presuming a higher probability of life forming from these simple building blocks that experience a lot of action on a comet than elsewhere.

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    I was thinking that perhaps our type of life might need a more sedate temperature range . Say -20 to +100

    Not disagreeing though . I imagine comets might go to close to absolute zero frequently ? Maybe they become superconductors --just kidding

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    Quote Originally Posted by nomeat View Post
    Yes indeed, but perhaps a tree might be capable of that one day in a few million years or sooner if we help with a bit of GM.
    After a couple of billion years they haven't found the need for a brain. I guess this is why the greenies don't like GM. They might be as distressed as the mung beans they eat, if the beans were smart enough to be shit scared of being eaten !


    OK, but if a comet accumulated water, why can't it have accumulated 'contaminated' water with bacteria, alge, at least spores?
    Yes, but that means the comets themselves were bootstrapped.
    Not that life evolved there. Their water is formed from hydrogen and oxygen gases condensed from nebula of previous stellar events.
    It is more likely that ort objects form at the same time as their planetary brothers. Ort objects orbit in almost circular orbits. The eleptical orbits we associate with coments are modified orbits, comets did not form with these orbits. In most cases ort object are ejected from the solar system after just one pass of the sun.

    It is suggested that the Oort cloud from where many comets are believed to have formed was originally much closer to the sun.
    Yes, but this is a little deceptive. The location of the ort cloud hasn't changed, just that the inner orbit objects have been displaced.
    It's like saying sydney and melbourne are now closer together than they were 100 years ago. This is only because their boundries have got bigger, not that they have actually moved closer together.
    To suggest they were closer to the sun and hence warmer does not hold water... so to speak. Even out at Jupiters orbit we're still talking deathly cold.
    To increase their orbit requires energy. Where did this energy come from ?
    To increase the orbit of the whole ort cloud requires a LOT of energy.
    To increase the orbit of the whole ort cloud and keep it all in a circular orbit requires errr.... a god !

    Overlap and interaction with similar formations of other star systems is also thought to be possible.
    To describe your motion as you sit reading this. You're moving at 1500kph as the Earth revolves on it's axis. You're also moving about 30km/s as the Earth orbits the sun. You're also moving at about 220km/s as our solar system orbits the galaxy. (Not to mention how fast you're bum is being hurtled out towards the edge of the galaxy.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Monty Python
    Just re-member that your standing on a planet that's evolving,
    and revolving at nine hundred miles an hour...
    That's orbiting at ninety miles a second, so it's reckoned,
    the sun that is the source of all our power.
    The sun and you and me, and all the stars that we can see,
    are moving at a million miles a day.
    in an outer spiral-arm at forty thousand miles an hour
    of the galaxy we call the Milky Way.

    Our galaxy itself contains a hundred billion stars,
    it's a hundred thousand lightyears side to side.
    It bulges in the middle, sixteen thousand lightyears thick,
    but out by us it's just three thousand lightyears wide.
    We're thirty thousand lightyears from galactic central point,
    we go 'round every two hundred million years.
    And our galaxy is only one of millions of billions,
    in this amazing and expanding universe.

    The universe itself keeps on expanding and expanding,
    in all of the directions it can whiz.
    As fast as it can go, that's the speed of light you know;
    twelve million miles a minute, that's the fastest speed there is.
    So remember when your feeling very small and insecure,
    how amazingly unlikely is your birth,
    and pray that there's intelligent life somewhere up in space,
    'cause there's bugger-all down here on earth!
    Back to the Galaxy. Our solar system doesn't just orbit around in a flat orbit.
    It oscillates through the galactic disk. The gravitational attraction of the disk itself is what pulls us back through it. Because of the huge amounts of empty space, most of the time whole solar systems pass through and without encountering anything else. But solar systems themselves attract each other as they pass through, and they need not collide to to have their own tradjectories changed by just the mass of a passing solar system.
    Too close and orbiting objects can be easily ejected from their host solar system to forever drift in space. Large planets and companion stars tend not to be ejected unless the pass is very close. But small objects are the first to be ejected. This is the reason why we were not sure than all stars had planets around them. It might have been quite common for stars to strip passing solar systems of their smaller rocky planets.
    Of course if stars get way too close they can tear each other apart in a similar manner that we see colliding galaxies tear each other apart.
    Collisions are rare, but it doesn't take much effort to upset the orbits of small objects and a near miss can shake free and disperse ort objects.
    Some gain energy and are ejected, some lose energy and fall into eleptical orbits, while others may just end up with a slight wobble but much the same orbit.
    Now it doesn't take a rocket scientist to know that star systems have a better chance of being influenced by another star system's gravity when they are passing through the galactic disk rather than spending their time at the edges. One thing leads to another and well, a few extinction theories find validation in these oscillations.



    So it would appear that comets are the bringers of death, not life.
    On the other hand, if it weren't for a big chunk of rock falling from the sky, it may have been mammals scurrying under rocks while reptiles sent rockets to the moon.

    On the other hand amino acids ARE the building blocks of life.
    There are countless theories how life may have developed from these but nobody really KNOWS.
    You don't "know" how those rocks got into your local creek, but you have a pretty good idea how they got there.

    There isn't anything magical about amino acids. You will find them in lots of places where there isn't life. In the same way that Hydrogen and Oxygen have the ability to find each other and form water, so to does nitrogen and hydrogen and suphur and well it's not long before Carbon gets in on the party.

    Methane is often associated with life, but the chemical is found in plenty of places in our own solar system where we know life doesn't exist. They're aren't many swamps on Neptune. Ethanol, another chemical which is attributed to life, yet we find it occuring in Nebula where it is very unlikely that yeast are throwing a party, and hell there ain't no signs of sugar in the same nebula !

    What I am trying to say is that on a comet a lot of things happen and change the whole time unlike a planet that is always far away from it's sun.
    That is why I am presuming a higher probability of life forming from these simple building blocks that experience a lot of action on a comet than elsewhere.
    Yes, it might be possible, but probability makes it very unlikely.
    It's long odds, but every now and then life pops up in some unusual places.
    Last edited by trash; 29-02-08 at 10:27 PM.

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    A computer virus can do that too
    Err yes but it needs a computer to do it in

    Originally Posted by nomeat
    Yes indeed, but perhaps a tree might be capable of that one day in a few million years or sooner if we help with a bit of GM.


    After a couple of billion years they haven't found the need for a brain. I guess this is why the greenies don't like GM. They might be as distressed as the mung beans they eat, if the beans were smart enough to be shit scared of being eaten !
    When we are kids the day is very long and we fit a lot in .
    We think at a fast rate and a second for us is perceived as about twice as long a time interval as when we are in our 60's

    With old age our perception of the time which has passed with each second is much less and the day is gone before you get anything done.

    Now my thought was that the trees grow quite slowly and can live for thousands of years , commonly hundreds. So maybe trees do think but at a rate different to our perception of time?

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    I can demonstrate how much thought a tree is capable of.
    I will take a chain saw, I will cut a small section of the tree, then stop and put the chainsaw down. I can come back 10 years latter and the tree has made no effort to run away or defend itself.

    In fact some greenies may turn up latter to protect the tree and live in it's branches. It's about this point in time the tree (if it had thought) would wish it were dead. At at least drop a branch at the right time to convert some greenies into fertiliser.

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    Yes and the wound will have long before healed itself -Special growth in a specific area

    Don't be frightened to hug a tree occasionally ,they supply a lot. Like Bob Hawke ,I'm an agnostic on religious matters and trees too Some of the stuff that goes on in the ground is just mind boggling.

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    Trash, I appreciate the effort you put into your comments

    Quote Originally Posted by trash View Post


    So it would appear that comets are the bringers of death, not life.
    All the more important that we dock some probes on comets to first see if they have spores of life and if not, nuke them to practise for the possible upcoming disaster. The comet crash probe 'Deep Impact' was compared with a mosquito hitting a jumbo jet.


    Quote Originally Posted by trash View Post
    Yes, it might be possible, but probability makes it very unlikely.
    It's long odds, but every now and then life pops up in some unusual places.
    There are several thousand known comets buzzing around our sol right now and it is thought to be trillions of nuclei in the Oort... so this might raise the probability slightly.


    Quote Originally Posted by tytower View Post
    Now my thought was that the trees grow quite slowly and can live for thousands of years , commonly hundreds. So maybe trees do think but at a rate different to our perception of time?
    Quote Originally Posted by trash View Post
    I can demonstrate how much thought a tree is capable of.
    I will take a chain saw, I will cut a small section of the tree, then stop and put the chainsaw down. I can come back 10 years latter and the tree has made no effort to run away or defend itself.

    In fact some greenies may turn up latter to protect the tree and live in it's branches. It's about this point in time the tree (if it had thought) would wish it were dead. At at least drop a branch at the right time to convert some greenies into fertiliser.
    I assume a tree would need some kind of central processing unit to think and a central nervous system to swell up individual cells for coordinated motion or sudden dispersal of a limb.
    I am sure we would have discovered that by now.

    But our time frame rate might be insufficient to percieve huge gaseous life forms on Jupiter for instance.

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    I remember that one of my science teachers was of the opinion that a Virus may be the ultimate survivor and space traveler, He also postulated that a virus could survive frozen in space and travel great distances, not interstellar but possibly interplanetary.

    And this was at a time before man had walked on the moon.



    Ice age bacteria brought back to life
    11:17 25 February 2005
    NewScientist.com news service
    Kelly Young
    A bacterium that sat dormant in a frozen pond in Alaska for 32,000 years has been revived by NASA scientists.
    Once scientists thawed the ice, the previously undiscovered bacteria started swimming around on the microscope slide. The researchers say it is the first new species of microbe found alive in ancient ice. Now named Carnobacterium pleistocenium, it is thought to have lived in the Pleistocene epoch, a time when woolly mammoths still roamed the Earth.
    NASA astrobiologist Richard Hoover, who led the team, said the find bolsters the case for finding life elsewhere in the universe, particularly given this week's news, broken by New Scientist, of frozen lakes just beneath the surface of equatorial Mars.

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    Viruses have a few problems. First is are they even really alive ?
    A computer virus behaves in exactly the same way, so is it alive too ?

    There are even simpler catagories of replicating proteins, prions. CJDv and Mad Cow Disease are well known examples of prion infection. Again, these behave in a similar but simpler way than viruses, so the question is asked, are they also alive ?

    It seems to be that single cell animals and plants and bacteria are considered alive, but we're not so sure about viruses and prions.

    When we consider using a virus as a vector for life, it should be noted that most viruses have very specific hosts and very few viruses are transgenic.
    An example is Bird Flu. It is not a human virus and for the most part, Avian influenza is not uptaken by mammalian hosts. On the very rare occasions that it is, an extraordinarily small proportion may mutate enough to create a new virus specific to that host. It will then also not be able to make the jump back to birds so easily.

    Some viruses are well known to jump species, like rabies. But rabies is still a mammalian virus and doesn't jump to birds, reptiles, fish or plants.

    It's one of my favourite un-sci-fi things about Star Trek. The series depict various aliens interbreeding. In the real universe each species has taken a completely different evolutionary line and would not be able to interbred anymore than a human would with a water lily than a very closely related life form like a chimpanzee.
    Even if two alien species looked identical their evolutionary paths would be so randomly different that the odds are beyond astronomical that they could interbred. Though boostrapping would reduce those odds from "almost impossible" to "almost alomst impossible".

    Sorry Nomeat. Life starting in regions like ort clouds and then spreading from there is a very very long shot. In an infinate universe it would seem nothing is impossible. But it's very improbable that we do not normally entertain the thought after consideration.

    A "slightly" more plausible logic would be that a previous solar system developed life in whatever forms it took, when that solar system was destroyed, the reminants of life were vaguely dispersed. Som of that material was then trapped in material that found it's way into ort objects where it remained trapped until such objects are ejected from an ort cloud.
    Whereas, material coalesceing into larger objects like planets may be destoryed by the harsh environment of large forming bodies.

    I was trying to remember the name of a nebula in one of my previous posts.
    I knew it had a funny common name but it was just slipping my memory.
    It was the "Trifid Nebula" and it contains a lot of Ethanol. A chemical that we normally associate with life. But it's not likely that there are space yeast out there nor space sugars. Nothing is impossible in an infinite universe, but for this example, it's also very very unlikely.

    Got to love the irony ... trifids ... such a good sci-fi example of bootstraping.

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    Bloke from NASA sent me this update on the picture .I suggest you have a look at the High Res pic if you are interested at all in the space station .

    Stunning picture if you download it and start magnifying it




    Unfortunately he didn't know what part of the world it was over

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    Good pic. Wow I didn't realise they were so far off completing it.
    They still have several solar arrays to install and there are about 12 modules missing that I can't find in that picture.

    I'm not sure where it is over the earth too just from looking at the picture.
    If it is a recent picture, then it's obviously the northern hemisphere with all the snow on the ground. I can think of several regions that look like this area but I can't even be sure of the orientation of the picture, so it's a bit too hard to guess.

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