Emizon

[kiwitech]

Sorry Dan I have to disagree. As far as I am aware there are two choices of product, that both use private IP networks. Granted they do share the same telco network infrastructure as the public domain (i.e. network fibre links) they are completley free of the public domain.

I guess some day technology will also make the armoured truck redundant.

[intelliGEORGE]

Sorry Dan I have to disagree. As far as I am aware there are two choices of product, that both use private IP networks. Granted they do share the same telco network infrastructure as the public domain (i.e. network fibre links) they are completley free of the public domain.

This is where I disagree with you kiwi. The only thing private about the systems is the servers they pass through. Everything else is public network infrastructure. No one went out and built a new (stand alone) network comprising of;

Dedicated PSTN lines
Dedicated Exchange switches
Dedicated GSM Cell Towers
Dedicated Interstate Fibre links
etc etc

At the end of the day, the client side is connected to the public domain and the CMS is connected to the public domain. Everything in between is just good jargon and sales pitches.

If the PST(Network) is good enough to deliver thousands and thousands of bank transactions a day, then it's good enough to deliver alarm signals.

[downunderdan]

As far as I am aware there are two choices of product, that both use private IP networks. Granted they do share the same telco network infrastructure as the public domain (i.e. network fibre links) they are completely free of the public domain.

As you haven't specified exactly which technologies you are referring to, I'm confining my answer to a theoretical one, rather than an evaluation of any specific technology. However, If you understand the OSI model, you'll appreciate we are talking about the first 3 (or possibly) 4 layers. The physical media is generally the same - copper or fibre between the node and an exchange, or a wireless media. As I suggested earlier, nobody's running their own point-to-point physical layer.

Without mentioning specific vendors, there is plenty of room for misunderstanding what is meant by "private", "totally private" networks etc. There is so much shared infrastructure, that most segregation is done at the higher levels, if at all. Even though vendors will tell you your infrastructure is separate, at some point it converges. You need to separate marketing hype from infrastructure limitations.

Simple example: It's the same mobile network that's carrying your "private" messages over GSM/GPRS. Same towers, same wires, same base stations.

There is simply no fully private network offered by any of the multiple path, publicly available products I have reviewed. They all use (at best) a Virtual Private Network or a VLAN or a separate trunk. The lower levels and core are shared. The rest is marketing hype, addressing an imaginary threat which hasn't yet been shown as a problem, to a group who generally can't even spell IP let alone understand it.

The Internet has been built, from day one, as a fault-tolerant highly resilient network. Originally it was designed to withstand nuclear attack wiping out half its users, without the other half missing an email. Very few fully private networks actually have that level of redundancy.

Is the Internet a bad place? Absolutely! But that doesn't mean you can't take steps to eliminate various threats. If you an encrypt a message, it doesn't matter who is carrying it. Let's just say that secret messages carried in briefcases handcuffed to couriers, are great in Hollywood, but in the real world, sending sensitive messages, encrypted, by DHL and Australia Post works just fine. The Internet's no different for electronic messaging.

But let's say someone invested billions (yes) on a fully private network and you did have a fully closed if not 'point to point' system - the simple fact is most central monitoring stations do not have the in-house IT capability to manage a basic server properly. There's a weak link right there. I would rather have it centrally managed and hosted by a competent provider with the budget and motivation to do so, and the willingness to lift up their skirts and be audited by third parties, rather than have someone simply say "Trust us, ours is more private and super-special".

As George said, there are transactions comfortably taking place on the Internet which far, far exceed the value of alarm signals. It's simply a question of managing crypto and resiliency.

And the weak link principle still applies. Plenty of installers will get bolshy with me about the above, convinced that eeevil hacker doodz might compromise their alarm signalling. But why would they bother, when it could be done just as easily with a pair of scissors...

I guess some day technology will also make the armoured truck redundant.

The Security Industry Registry and Firearms Registry will have driven them out of business long before that happens.

[intelliGEORGE]

There is simply no fully private network offered by any of the multiple path, publicly available products I have reviewed. They all use (at best) a Virtual Private Network or a VLAN or a separate trunk. The lower levels and core are shared. The rest is marketing hype, addressing an imaginary threat which hasn't yet been shown as a problem, to a group who generally can't even spell IP let alone understand it.

That paragraph sums it up well. All the products commercially available on the market fall into this explination.

[SCT]

Plenty of installers will get bolshy with me about the above, convinced that eeevil hacker doodz might compromise their alarm signalling. But why would they bother, when it could be done just as easily with a pair of scissors...

Just out of curosity, can anyone ever recall a single incidence of a security system being compromised by one of the above mentioned eevil hacker doodz?
I've been around for a long time and have seen some weird things that crooks will do to break into a premises but have yet to come across one that was defeated by a super techno hacker (except hollywood movies!) and even if they could, why would they use their evil genious to steal the lawn mower from my garage instead of writing a script that transfers a small percentage of every transaction from some bank somewhere to their swiss bank account??....again, just curious.

[IPAlarms]

I guess some day technology will also make the armoured truck redundant.

Yep - but not rebates.

I think installers can see through the whole public Internet hype, but they can't let go of those monthly rebates.

Oh and one other minor obstacle...... the only three companies compliant with Australian standards do not offer IP only solutions, so you pay for GPRS whether you want it or not !

Using a mixture of stubborness and over regulation, the Australian security industry has made something so simple, sooooooo difficult

[SCT]

I guess some day technology will also make the armoured truck redundant.

The technology has been around for decades. Its called EFTPOS.

[downunderdan]

Just out of curosity, can anyone ever recall a single incidence of a security system being compromised by one of the above mentioned eevil hacker doodz?

Yes and no.

An access control system was on a client's LAN which we compromised as part of a security assessment. Doors were remotely opened and alarms disabled. Part of the problem was the extremely poorly written security management software, which plenty of you will be familiar with. Our findings suggested people making alarm hardware, have no business writing software. I wrote a paper on it which you can find if you look hard enough.

Don't bother asking me which software, as I'd say the same issue affects most of them.

Luckily we, good hacker doodz, found the problem and showed them before eeevil hacker doodz managed to (as far as they were aware).

[downunderdan]

The technology has been around for decades. Its called EFTPOS.

Cash will always be around as long as there is a cash economy and black market trading. There is a reason there are so many ATMs in Kings Cross.

[kiwitech]

Who said GPRS is not an IP network. As for if a product use's the public domain or not the proof is stored on the SIM card. The manfuacturer's lock the SIM card to stop you reading their parameters. If you know how to get around this then a simple command sent via hperterminal to a GSM modem with the SIM card inside will answer all your questions.

Enough said on this subject, as I like my job.

[Zodie]

...

In my opinion, an outsourced patrol response will get to a job as quickly as they can, regardless of the nature of the call-out or the alarm events which preceded it. The sooner they get there, the sooner they get paid and can resume their normal patrol or attend other jobs.

...

You might not have met many patrollies, but the LTC (which has already be sitting at the CMS for nearly a hour) that always comes through on a friday night for ZZZ publications on the other side of town, when the staff escort and lockup that takes 30 minutes to do is around the corner in 15 minutes time, will not get responded to "as quickly as they can". And they will not get paid sooner for responding sooner.

The comms fail which caused the LTC (and is still sitting in the buffer with the closing and multiple activations as well) may have happened 6 hours earlier, but without a secondary reporting path that is constantly monitored how would anyone know? Comms fail (the event) doesn't always show up as comms fail (the alarm).

And many, many patrollies will put the 5am single activation on the lunchroom PIR a second priority behind the 2am reception glass break, reception PIR, multiples on cashroom PIR and hallway PIR and still getting activations.

The realities of life.

[IPAlarms]

Who said GPRS is not an IP network.

I know, I know - but let's just call a GPRS network "GPRS", and a DSL connection "IP" - otherwise confusion will reign

What I meant to say was that SCSI, Telstra and Emizon do not offer an "IP only" (i.e. DSL using customers own modem) solution. Their solutions are built around private GPRS networks for high end applications. Obviously this comes at a cost and these companies have to make a return on their huge investments. They will (hopefully) do this by replacing all of the Securitel systems out there.

In my view, SCSI probably offer the most superior high end solution with their dual GPRS paths, but I would understand if others disagreed and preferred a combination of wired and wireless. Horses for courses

My point is that none of these products offer an affordable solution for PSTN dialler replacements where cost (both up front and ongoing) is paramount.

[Arbiter]

Who said GPRS is not an IP network. As for if a product use's the public domain or not the proof is stored on the SIM card. The manfuacturer's lock the SIM card to stop you reading their parameters. If you know how to get around this then a simple command sent via hperterminal to a GSM modem with the SIM card inside will answer all your questions.

Enough said on this subject, as I like my job.

Easy there kiwi - giving away trade secrets on here will not look good on a resume.
BTW: There are other ways to do this as I'm sure you are aware.

[keef82]

Has anyone actually been to a service call for a misbehaving Emizon?

I have not, i've been to plenty of other manufacturer products for "lockups"
which result in communications failures!

[bss904]

Only problems i have had to date was down to a certain cms stuffing up. Having delt with that situation now, have had no further problems since. They all run like clockwork. No hardware issues either.

[downunderdan]

The realities of life.

Go back and re-read your comment. Most of it sounds like a mediocre monitoring station, poor or undefined procedures and a shabby patrol company.

I bet they are cheap though.

That may be "the realities of life" for a large section of the security industry, however it is not a space I choose to operate in. For people who are happy with that degree of service (and are no doubt getting what they paid for) I very much doubt whether communication path resiliency is a big concern...

As for prioritising burglary alarms (as distinct from late-to-close which I regard as largely administrative), of course this happens. Patrol density and coverage is an important consideration to avoid this. Too many companies have a single car covering an area the size of Tasmania and do not publish their response times, citing instead rubbish about "industry standard".

When I assess a response firm, I will often order a pizza and a response at the same time. All too often, my Pepperoni will arrive before my Patrolman. I'm yet to sack a pizza company...

As I said - the patrol will get there "as quickly as they can". A better company, even quicker...

[Paulypudding]

Has anyone actually been to a service call for a misbehaving Emizon?

I have not, i've been to plenty of other manufacturer products for "lockups"
which result in communications failures!

Has anyone actually fully tested an Emizon out in the field. I installed my first one on Friday and while extensively testing it, it actually lost some signals where the panel was kissed of but not all signals were received. Wasn't too impressed with this but will be investigating some more. Not having any problems doesn't actually mean it works as it should or its working correctly. I'm not saying that they will all be faulty, but it depends on the level of testing, or what you are actually testing for.

[bss904]

Has anyone actually fully tested an Emizon out in the field.

Not having any problems doesn't actually mean it works as it should or its working correctly.

I'm not saying that they will all be faulty, but it depends on the level of testing, or what you are actually testing for.

Come on Paul. What sort of a comments are these.

Mate i will give you some facts. Not everyone is green around the gills. I am a bit more than 1 year ahead of where you are at now with this product.
I set up a class 4 dp service initially testing 2 different panel types. I spent 5 months doing exhaustive testing on these panels looking for the slightest flaw to show its ugly head. Those panels had the crap tested out of them to prove integrity of the system. At the same time it was also hammering the cms and proving the system at their end. A few issues were found, addressed and re-tested over and over again looking for any repeats.
Puting this system in the cms for the first time also demanded a lot of trials and testing and training before going live.
All of this was done before even considering putting anything live in a customer premises.

I put my first ones live in January and the only issues i have encountered to date were cms issues with one particular cms. Other cms's i use have not had the same issues.

I currently have another panel type on test for the last 8 weeks with about another 8 weeks still to go. I am testing every single event that it can generate against the cms's template looking for mismatchs and any other mapping or reporting problems. This testing proceedure will be repeated for every single panel type that i will connect to this service. It is very time consuming work (& all unpaid) but it is the right way to do it in the long run.
I even took a test rig into the potential sites to test the IP and gprs signals before installation and finalising quotes.

[Paulypudding]

I sugest you go and get some support on this product as you are seriously mis-informed on and how it is configured and works. The signal is measured to 30 only not 99 and polling rates are controlled by what class you have enabled. Depending on what area you are in in relation to towers, i can still achieve a signal of 12 - 16 with no airial connected in some places.
As to not seeing certain events, i would sugest that your cms has not set up the template correctly. Ask for a core log and then compare what has been sent and what your cms is showing you.
I sugest you give mcm a call and get some advice as you knowledge is seriously lacking on this easy to use product. You can use the core logs to keep you cms on their toes as nothing is able to be hidden or covered up.
Once you have learnt about this product and you re read what you have written hear you will understand.
As others have stated, this product is very good and reliable when coupled with a cms that has been set up correctly and knows what it is doing. Most of the problems encountered to date have been cms issues and if you use a good cms with their finger on the pulse you wont have any.

Mmm. Strange you getting upset by my general comments about the system when you were making directed comments about my "so called" abilities in the early post (attached) without knowing anything about my abilities at all.

I haven't suggested any particular person has or has not made the required tests. By some of the replies though it is apparent that some have not tested as thoroughly as others. That's normal though. I'm not bagging that. Not everyone has the time to try and achieve this and you have to rely on the manufacturers to some extent.

What I'm trying to do here is make people aware of what I have found. If they can use this information and if it helps them make a more informed decision then I'm happy as I think we should share and work together on new technology. What would be helpful though is if individuals didn't jump to conclusions without knowing the facts themselves and then trying to "bignote" themselves by dragging someone else down, whether or not that person is correct or not. You don't know me and you don't know my abilities and so can't know how far ahead you are in any particular field.

If you think I am wrong on anything I say in this forum, then just ask the question.

[keef82]

Has anyone actually fully tested an Emizon out in the field. I installed my first one on Friday and while extensively testing it, it actually lost some signals where the panel was kissed of but not all signals were received. Wasn't too impressed with this but will be investigating some more. Not having any problems doesn't actually mean it works as it should or its working correctly. I'm not saying that they will all be faulty, but it depends on the level of testing, or what you are actually testing for.

Which panel were you using?