Coax? cat5? analog? IP? whats everyone doing...

[WIDEMR]

To all the cctv techs out there, just wondering what people are doing and there thoughts?

For new installs, are many people pushing and using IP cameras?

If so, making your own network or adding them onto the sites excising network? obviously large installs im assuming own network?

Or due to cost are most people installing analog still? Oviously for adding few to an excisting analog system you would use analog.

For new installs or new cameras being installed and are using analog cameras, are people still using coax or cat5/6 and baluns?

Few people ive spoken to are using cat5 and baluns now, mainly to 'future proof' the installation, incase its upgraded to IP cameras down the track, no need to rip out the coax and re haul cat5.

What are peoples opinions on baluns? what distances would you use baluns over coax?

Im still a coax man at heart for cameras, think ive been scared off by coming across too many poor quality setups using baluns in the past, but obviously technology may have improved alot since.

obviously for long runs IP camera rule as all you need is a cheap switch to extend another 100+ meters, plus can run a heap into a switch, then 1 cable back to dvr.

[intelliGEORGE]

Definately look at putting in place at least the cabling in larger installations where labour and cable costs exceed that of the system itself. We have deployed many twisted pair solutions as it is inevidable, everything is going down the IP route.

Our cabling is 10GBASE-T ready, which is capable of 10 gigabits per second. To achieve the usual 100 metres, the cable needs to be Cat-6a (augmented Cat6) which is designed to reduce crosstalk between UTP cables, known as alien crosstalk. This ensures the network can support 1000Base-T with options to change the switching gear to 10GBase-T later on.

As for baluns, they're as good as what you pay for, go the cheap and nasty and expect cheap and nasty. I use NVT, they work up to 250m (50m short of Coax) if you need longer runs, they have active recievers that will transmit easily over 1 Kilometer. Again, shop around, but beware of cheap makes. I learned the hard way.

As for pushing IP, they are coming down in price and a lot of the manufacturers are moving to IP.

[SCT]

At this point I am still using a combination of coax and cat5/6 due to he fact that most of the clients I have either have existing analogue systems or the cost of a dedicated IP network for a new system is prohibitive (hardware rather than labour).
For longer runs I tend to use UTP with active links rather than increasing the coax to RG6 or RG11. Its a lot easier to run, cost effective and IMO provides images of equal quality when installed correctly with good equipment.
I have done a few system upgrades lately (mostly replacing old DVRs) so with coax cabling in place clients will often baulk at the concept (and cost) of futurising with IP.
As George has suggested, as the hardware cost comes down IP will become more attractive for new installations.
As far as connecting IP cameras onto the clients existing network..any time I have mentioned this, the clients IT guy gets in their ear about bandwidth issues etc. It's often not worth it for me to try and talk them around (or upsell) and have them install a separate network.
My feeling is that govt departments/corporations/authorities and defense contractors are most likely to absorb the cost of a new IP CCTV system.
Having said that, I still make a point of asking the question of whether they have consideried IP when asked to quote an install.

[CCTVguru]

Im an IP salesman.
if there is existing coax, there are converters to send 100Mbps ethernet over it. Distances vary with the device from 150m for RG59 to 300m RG6 is longer.

While IP does cost more, I can not see the point in using CAT5 and baluns. Just do the job right and have the advantages of IP instead of staying in the past.

[WIDEMR]

Another Q, with RG6 is it ok to use MATV style RG6? as in alum foil braid? Or does it HAVE to be copper braid? heard it may matter but know people that do it both ways, both 75ohm.

I understand joinign copper to alum is a no no because of the reaction the metals make

[watchdog]

Another Q, with RG6 is it ok to use MATV style RG6? as in alum foil braid? Or does it HAVE to be copper braid? heard it may matter but know people that do it both ways, both 75ohm.

I understand joining copper to alum is a no no because of the reaction the metals make

The biggest problem I've found with the foil+braid is stripping it back to go over the BNC (especially the two piece BNC). It usually tears off & because there is only about 40% braid it can leave the crimp sleave a bit loose. Give me 90% copper braid & 0.9mm centre every time !

[WIDEMR]

Yeah the thicker stuff can be a pain for 3 piece bnc's, for rg6 i use the 1 piece cripms, like F connectors.

[SCT]

Im an IP salesman.
if there is existing coax, there are converters to send 100Mbps ethernet over it. Distances vary with the device from 150m for RG59 to 300m RG6 is longer.

While IP does cost more, I can not see the point in using CAT5 and baluns. Just do the job right and have the advantages of IP instead of staying in the past.

Thanks for the info about the converters to allow you to use the coax, hadn't heard of them before.
As you are in the sales area, do you run into the IT departments objections about you using up bandwidth on their network?
How do you overcome this?.. or do you just talk the client into installing a dedicated CCTV network?

[intelliGEORGE]

I would install a seperate network. There's not much to it, patch panel, couple of 24 port switches and a 19" data rack. All you do then is bridge the two networks (create a path to the CCTV from the customers IP network) to enable remote viewing. Most IP systems use h.264 compression over ethernet for remote viewing, so bandwidth consumption isn't an issue.

[CCTVguru]

As you are in the sales area, do you run into the IT departments objections about you using up bandwidth on their network?
How do you overcome this?.. or do you just talk the client into installing a dedicated CCTV network?

I have been selling and technically designing/supporting IP video for around 7 years.
More IT guys are scared of video because there are some really bad products out there. I recently quoted a job in WA that asked for storage and bandwidth scenarios for various expansions sizes. my system (IndigoVision) was 1/3 the size of the other very well known brand.

Understanding the IT guys lingo helps. Discuss how your system will use bandwidth manager to prevent saturation. Set the system up for dual streaming. Most products cant do this properly. Local traffic goes to the NVR are higher quality and bandwidth, giving 4CIF 25ips on all cmaeras. Live viewing at a lower bandwidth and sometimes CIF or 2CIF.
I did a job in NZ that from a remote site was streaming 25ips CIF at 60Kbpa and was a good image. better than many DVR's give.

Having the right product makes a huge difference

if you want to find out more, also post to

[CCTVguru]

I would install a seperate network. There's not much to it, patch panel, couple of 24 port switches and a 19" data rack. All you do then is bridge the two networks (create a path to the CCTV from the customers IP network) to enable remote viewing. Most IP systems use h.264 compression over ethernet for remote viewing, so bandwidth consumption isn't an issue.

Corporates will not allow this and often want to view on the existing workstations. Also crossing WAN's in most corporates cant be your own network.

I work with Australia wide clients like BHP that allow it on their LAN to a head office form remote areas.

Yes a separate LAN is nice but often ont possible in enterprise systems

[AUS355]

Hi Guys

What wireless range can you get out of a high quality outdoor wireless camera? Is this a network/ip style camera or like 2.4ghz over A/V style camera?

regards,

Aus355

[CCTVguru]

Hi Guys

What wireless range can you get out of a high quality outdoor wireless camera? Is this a network/ip style camera or like 2.4ghz over A/V style camera?

regards,

Aus355

Using an IP camera, the first thing you need to ask is how much bandwidth does it need. Take into account the live view and recorded streams and overhead packet data. Many will need 10Mbps or more.
Sounds low as most wireless quote 54Mbps or higher.

The reality is most when passing video will drop down to 3-5Mbps after a few seconds of opperation.

So based on that I recommend the Wavesight, which has models that do 1Km, 5Km and 15Km.

Installations include SA City Safe projects, NT City Safe projects and Dept Road Transport.

Other IndigoVision partners have had positive experience with other products but keep away from DLINK and other domestic brands.

Also see this post

[Tecom Master]

Another Q, with RG6 is it ok to use MATV style RG6? as in alum foil braid? Or does it HAVE to be copper braid? heard it may matter but know people that do it both ways, both 75ohm.

I understand joinign copper to alum is a no no because of the reaction the metals make

Generally it's a bad idea to use matv coax for baseband video as it does not perform as well at lower frequencys as video coax.


We've started putting in a lot of IP gear into larger sites but find that customers with smaller sites are still going for analouge systems, seems to be primarily a cost thing at this stage with most of them not really requiring the benifits of going IP. We won't use baluns unless we have to for a specific reason, if it's a new install of analouge camera's it gets coax.

[watchdog]

Hi Guys

What wireless range can you get out of a high quality outdoor wireless camera? Is this a network/ip style camera or like 2.4ghz over A/V style camera?

regards,

Aus355

What part is the high quality , the camera or the wireless ?
I believe that free access radio bands are limited to 10mW power. Range may be improved using high gain anntenas but they are not cheap. 2.4Ghz is also severely affected by water & guess what, the human body is mainly water. I have had 2.4Ghz gear spaced at 1m & all transmission is lost when you walk inbetween. If you can get Rx & Tx anntenas up high line of sight you may get 80m reliable range. With a 25 yr background in microwave radio I would try hard to find an alternative.