Need Diagram for building phoenix reader/programmer

[cgworld]

Hi guys.

i was looking for a correct diagram(3... , 6mhz i don't mind if there is also for 10mhz),i searched and found many but i dont know which is right!
anybody got one ? providing full info and pics would be great!
And is there any online shop for buying the components ? (transistors,switchs,...)

thanks guys

[fandtm666]

quicker easier to buy a jcar version

[blade_900au]

Hi guys.

i was looking for a correct diagram,i searched and found many but i dont know which is right!
anybody got one ? providing full info and pics would be great!
And is there any online shop for buying the components ? (transistors,switchs,...)

thanks guys

Hey Mate
Do a search for jayar progammer it is made by jaycar and is a kit that you put together and it works well.
Oh and you can change out crystal to get 10mhz if you need it.
Good luck
Blade

[cgworld]

okay ... started searching ... will be back soon

thanks guys

[cgworld]

quicker easier to buy a jcar version

Yes thats a good idea but after doing some experiments.i really like to build this kind of things specially bcoss i am a computer engineer student so my last choice would be buying it !

[cgworld]

ok guys i found 2 of them :

i don't know if they are the same ...





i have seen some drawings but i dont find them now!

[fandtm666]

Yes thats a good idea but after doing some experiments.i really like to build this kind of things specially bcoss i am a computer engineer student so my last choice would be buying it !

If that is the case then search through the forums here , last yr some one did a full redesign of the jcar model with help from gw1 .

the full schematics and parts list was all in there.

[elbee111]

Yep. Both pics are of the Jaycar MkII.

Its the one I have used of and on for years now. I am pretty sure they still sell the kits.

[fandtm666]

enjoy

[cgworld]

thanks to all of you!

[cgworld]

only one problem, first i have to print the diagram on the board then put the board in a machine ( i dont know how its called, there is something like chloride inside the machine ) ! which one of this 4 i must use ?

[fandtm666]

only one problem, first i have to print the diagram on the board then put the board in a machine ( i dont know how its called, there is something like chloride inside the machine ) ! which one of this 4 i must use ?

Ok so i take it you have never done any pcb building before by that statement.

depending on whether you are using positive or negative Presensitised boards you will either use the inverted or non inverted
the print is then placed on the board using a uv unit.

then once the print is on the board you have to use the correct developer for the board be it either positive or negative

once that is done you will then use the etching tank

so i think you have missed a few steps.

You have taken a rather large board as a first timer mate i suggest play with some smaller stuff first till
you fully understand how it all works and whats involved

[weirdo]

only one problem, first i have to print the diagram on the board then put the board in a machine ( i dont know how its called, there is something like chloride inside the machine ) ! which one of this 4 i must use ?

lol, if you have to ask that then maybe this job is beyond you?
the two on the right are the ones you need.

[gw1]

Recommendation

• If you can buy a Jaycar Mk II kit, do so. You'll thank yourself later, trust me.
• Otherwise have a go at building the on veroboard. It's much simpler than Jaycar Mk II. It can't program blank gold/silver cards, but if all you need is Phoenix - not blank card programming - then it's the way to go.
• If you haven't etched your own PCBs before then you will want to do lots of reading about that first, quite apart from smartcard-specific issues. It's probably wise to build a couple of simpler projects first to gain experience, eg with fewer components, fewer hole sizes, thicker tracks etc. Baby steps! Lots of things can go wrong when making your own PCBs if you've not done it before. Even Jaycar's kit department (with decades of experience) a recent revision of the Jaycar Mk II PCB design, to great inconvenience and misery of some kit constructors.
• If you're learning both smartcards and electronics at the same time, those are two significant (and mostly separate) learning curves. You will find you learn faster and more efficiently if you tackle just one at a time. Consider buying or borrowing a working phoenix interface off a friend and tinkering with it until you understand the concepts, the signal types and polarities, the programming applications (eg IC-Prog/FMCard), the card applications (eg Irdeto 1 emulators) etc. Once you have that clear in your mind you'll find it much easier to understand how phoenix circuits work - and hence how to fix one if it doesn't!

Msay's redesign of Jaycar phoenix circuit was driven by specific constraints particular to his circumstances that almost certainly don't apply to you.

• In the country where he lived, he couldn't easily order a kit through the post.
• He had already much experience with chemical etching and drilling of his own PCBs - ie he wasn't a novice, he already had climbed that educational curve. He made the PCB not for learnings sake but because it was logistically simpler. For most electronics beginners this is definitely not the case!
• He couldn't obtain a 4PDT (multipole) mode switch of any kind from his country's component suppliers, which drove him to instead use an electronic mode selector (a circuit he'd used before and was comfortable with). In Australia though there are many suppliers with many suitable 4PDT switch types available off-the-shelf in retail stores or by overnight mail order. A 4PDT switch is by far a cheaper, simpler and less problematic solution than electronic switching unless you really *need* electronic switching for some reason (which for a phoenix interface you don't).
• When he initially made the decision to use an electronic mode selector, he wasn't aware that he was opening a can of worms regarding the mix of 13V rails, bidirectional I/O bus impedance, and short-circuit overcurrent protection. It took considerable discussion and drafting for us to come up with a circuit which worked properly without risk of parts occasionally burning out (which happens with some phoenix designs).

(Apologies if my summary above isn't entirely correct, but that's how I remember it. msay's project stumbled on and eventually overcame a nasty bug with certain brand ICs misbehaving when spare inputs were tied to power rails, and much of the grief was due to that single issue, but that doesn't change my point which is that msay climbed a hurdle that most constructors in other countries needn't have faced.)

The decision to "drop in" an analog switch IC seemed straightforward to msay at the time but experienced eyes can anticipate things that go wrong. msay wasn't a beginner - far from it! But he had just enough inexperience in the relevant area to encounter a bunch of nasty problems that took a long time to sort out. That's why, for everyone, it's usually advantageous to go the kit route when possible, build and learn and maybe rebuild later with a modified design of your own. The advantage is you're staying on paths with higher probably of success and learning, and avoiding needless frustration.

There's a myth that if you always choose the easy path you won't learn, but it's a gross oversimplification - one that tight-arsed employers and hobbyists both are prone to fall into when trying to convince themselves that not spending money is the wisest option. Smart employers in R&D world frequently invest in manufacturers' evaluation boards rather than drafting their own ones. Why? Why not save time and money, jumping straight to your own prototype? The answer they've learned from experience is that picking your battles and avoiding needless risks and mistakes gives big return financially in the long run. Electronics enthusiasts studying as a hobby obviously come at it from a different direction, having plenty of spare time but a scarcity of cash. That's understandable but often leads to decisions that extract a much higher educational cost than they're aware of at the time.

Educational psychology is one of my pets, so forgive me for indulging in a ramble.

For most efficient education it doesn't make sense to always choose the options that involve doing things from scratch rather than buying pre-built or semi-built. You don't build your own soldering iron or multimeter, do you?

For efficient education you take baby steps in the right sequence. Especially for beginners, building from a kit, studying and understanding how it works, modifying and experimenting with it, nearly always delivers faster learning and greater satisfaction than trying to leap a tall building in a single bound.

Building an electronics project from a kit rather than individually sourced parts and/or custom circuit design is not a cop out. For beginners, in many if not most cases it's actually far smarter. If you spend forty hours building something that you never get to work, it's bad for your education. Not only do you learn less than you hoped for, but more seriously you become risk-averse and innoculate yourself against the desire to be adventurous later on. That's why so many of history's really smart people had a bunch of different tutors when they were young, choosing projects that reveal without spoonfeeding, that challenge without overwhelming, that reward effort as much as success, and that cultivate discipline and patience rather than a taste for quick gratification. That's all important because becoming bright isn't like filling a filing cabinet with lecture notes or project folios, it's more like cultivating a plant. A bad experience is potentially far more damaging than just being a lost opportunity - it stunts growth and forever changes the direction and manner in which the plant grows.

Breakthroughs in learning come from having the energy to take risks, coupled with "just enough" experience and insight to be able to harness and focus that energy in the right places. Project failure depletes that energy. It only takes a bad teacher and a couple of boring, pointless exercises to innoculate even the most imaginative school kid against love of maths, physics, electronics or chemistry.

best of luck

[mandc]

lol, if you have to ask that then maybe this job is beyond you?
the two on the right are the ones you need.

Weirdo is right, if you are not aware that ferric chloride is used for pcb etching, this project of yours seems way out of your expertise.

You do realize that the Jaycar does have to be built from component parts as a kit...the only things you get are a pre made pcb and a bag of components that you solder together. It was pretty damn daunting for me the first time I built one .Good luck with your project anyway

[stolla]

easy to build and cheap, works 100%

[jedimaster]

This is much better
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