Reply With QuoteThe Solution and Vision panels will have a true IP interface thats fits onto the PCB board as an option, very soon.Originally Posted by keef82
IP Monitoring
HI Guys,
Some food for thought, it appears that the new AS2201.5 (Australian Standard's Alarm Tranmission Systems) will cover the introduction of IP Monitoring, Securitel, Direct line e.t.c
One major point has been raised, The connection between the transmission device, GSM, IP device e.t.c and the alarm panel.
Most of the products that i have seen to date use the panels dialler to dial into the IP / GSM device (store and forward), this means there is no two way poll between the panel and the Transmission device, e.g PANEL "hello r u there" Transmission device "YEAH IM HERE" a good example of this communication is the 232 stu on a tecom for example, should the connection to the panel fail, the stu will stay online BUT send an alarm to monitoring (depending on panel, some only report this when manually polled)
Annyone know of a product that has a true interface into the alarm panel, (i think the FE3000 from innerrange does) or any information on the changes to the standard?
*i do understand most products will report a message if the dialler lead is removed e.t.c, but this will apparently not comply to the new standard*
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The Solution and Vision panels will have a true IP interface thats fits onto the PCB board as an option, very soon.
Interesting one Keef.
I wonder how detailed the..
PANEL "hello r u there" Transmission device "YEAH IM HERE"
..needs to be. What determines if the connection between an add-on signalling device and the panel is "alive" ?
A voltage ?
A loop ?
Sounds to me like they are trying to force the use of specific devices that are manufactured by the panel manufacturer and not by third parties. That's the only way I can see true integrity of the connection. If that is what they are trying to do, then the customer can fair kiss competition bye bye and expect to pay a whole lot more for their upgrade.
Developer of VoIP2Go at ozvoip.net - Alarm compatible VoIP Network
What makes you think that you will have to pay more for other solutions. More products usually means more competition providing they meet the correct standards of course. Sounds like you are worried about a bit of competition, and if your product doesn't meet standards then you will have to change it or miss the boat i guess.
A customer with a panel manufactured by company X would have no option but to purchase the upgrade device from company X. He has had the luxury of being able to shop around taken away from him.
What if the customers Monitoring Centre does not support IP signals from company X's device ?
Competition - No. The Aussie market needs more IP products on the market to increase awareness.
Standards - Yes. If the "powers that be" insist an IP device has to plug onto a panel PCB then that would be a bad standard in my view.
There are approx 1 million alarms signalling over PSTN at present - using a huge range of panels (some very old). All of these will have to move to IP/GSM soon. What if you have a panel from a manufacturer that does not provide a plug-on IP device ? Your stuffed !
All bureaus know the last thing a customer wants to do is change their control panel. Maybe somebody should let the standards bodies know that ?
Developer of VoIP2Go at ozvoip.net - Alarm compatible VoIP Network
i have a feeling that the MCM IP stu will be compliant to grade 3 at least, im not 100% sure, but i think the panel talks to it in STU format, which is polled to the main panel, on most mainstream panels this means you will be able to have a polled IP Monitoring solution.
And therein lies the answer ladies and gentlemen.
I "smelled a rat" and I have been doing a little research. Everything has become crystal clear and here's the story so far....
Once upon a time in Security Land, there was a big, big house called Securitel and a happy little company called MCM that looked after it and did very, very well from it.
Then one day a big nasty company called Telstra came along and they huffed and they puffed and they blew the securitel house down. Well, that left the nice people at MCM very worried about their livelyhood
What can we do asked the MCM team ?
"I know" said the boss. "I have some very good friends at ASIAL - perhaps I can convince them to rewrite the Australian Security Standards to suit our new little IP STU and then we can rebuild our house into a mansion"
"I want to name the board Sneaky STU" said one of the staff. "I want to name it Slimey STU" said another. But the boss had other ideas and he came up with IPSTU and named the network "E21" after Emizon 21 - who were busy doing the same thing back in little Ol' UK.
"Will those nice people at Emizon in the UK let us use their managed network so we can stick it to those nasty, nasty people at SCSI and SureTek ?" asked one of the staff.
"Of course they will" replied the boss - "they've just had over a million dollars pumped into their company and they want to flash their British cash around a bit".
"That's great" said the customer relations girl - "I can organise a golf tournament and lay on some nice food and wine for our lovely friends on the Standards commitee"
Well, the food and wine must have been very good as MCM's underhand plan worked perfectly, the standards were written to suit their products and they have now begun building their mansion.
All that remains now is to find out if you bureaus out there in Security Land believe the story and want to be part of the MCM/Emizon 21 fairy tale and let them live happily ever after.
Developer of VoIP2Go at ozvoip.net - Alarm compatible VoIP Network
Great Conspiracy Theory!And therein lies the answer ladies and gentlemen.
I "smelled a rat" and I have been doing a little research. Everything has become crystal clear and here's the story so far....
Once upon a time in Security Land, there was a big, big house called Securitel and a happy little company called MCM that looked after it and did very, very well from it.
Then one day a big nasty company called Telstra came along and they huffed and they puffed and they blew the securitel house down. Well, that left the nice people at MCM very worried about their livelyhood
"I want to name the board Sneaky STU" said one of the staff. "I want to name it Slimey STU" said another. But the boss had other ideas and he came up with IPSTU and named the network "E21" after Emizon 21 - who were busy doing the same thing back in little Ol' UK.
"Will those nice people at Emizon in the UK let us use their managed network so we can stick it to those nasty, nasty people at SCSI and SureTek ?" asked one of the staff.
"Of course they will" replied the boss - "they've just had over a million dollars pumped into their company and they want to flash their British cash around a bit".
"That's great" said the customer relations girl - "I can organise a golf tournament and lay on some nice food and wine for our lovely friends on the Standards commitee"
Well, the food and wine must have been very good as MCM's underhand plan worked perfectly, the standards were written to suit their products and they have now begun building their mansion.
All that remains now is to find out if you bureaus out there in Security Land believe the story and want to be part of the MCM/Emizon 21 fairy tale and let them live happily ever after.
Sounds like someone in the IP Signaling field missed the train.
....which is flawed because...?????
Not us Georgey Boy. We were already working on something similar and very soon our devices will take things one step further and do it all the way from the server....
Server: "Are you there" ?
IP Device: "I'm here.... panel are you there" ?
Panel: "Yes I'm here"
IP Device: "We are both here"
MCM: "Shit. That nasty person from IP Alarms knows too much. Change the standards so that companies with IP in their name do not comply !!"
ASIAL:
Developer of VoIP2Go at ozvoip.net - Alarm compatible VoIP Network
In reference to IP Monitoring has anyone had any experience with the Telstra Business Secure Network and the UHS Devices?
How funny....but in reality it appears to be quite true...And therein lies the answer ladies and gentlemen.
I "smelled a rat" and I have been doing a little research. Everything has become crystal clear and here's the story so far....
Once upon a time in Security Land, there was a big, big house called Securitel and a happy little company called MCM that looked after it and did very, very well from it.
Then one day a big nasty company called Telstra came along and they huffed and they puffed and they blew the securitel house down. Well, that left the nice people at MCM very worried about their livelyhood
"I want to name the board Sneaky STU" said one of the staff. "I want to name it Slimey STU" said another. But the boss had other ideas and he came up with IPSTU and named the network "E21" after Emizon 21 - who were busy doing the same thing back in little Ol' UK.
"Will those nice people at Emizon in the UK let us use their managed network so we can stick it to those nasty, nasty people at SCSI and SureTek ?" asked one of the staff.
"Of course they will" replied the boss - "they've just had over a million dollars pumped into their company and they want to flash their British cash around a bit".
"That's great" said the customer relations girl - "I can organise a golf tournament and lay on some nice food and wine for our lovely friends on the Standards commitee"
Well, the food and wine must have been very good as MCM's underhand plan worked perfectly, the standards were written to suit their products and they have now begun building their mansion.
All that remains now is to find out if you bureaus out there in Security Land believe the story and want to be part of the MCM/Emizon 21 fairy tale and let them live happily ever after.
I have used the UHS devices, found them very easy to install, very stable & perform extremely well.
Can't say i've used any other IP devices though.
do the panels have an rs232 port?
My guess would be about 10% of panels have a com port. I know what you're thinking, but forget it, there's only one manufacturer (NESS) that will talk to anyone.
Developer of VoIP2Go at ozvoip.net - Alarm compatible VoIP Network
For a simple simon can someone please say what IP ,UHS ,PSTN etc stand for .? I'd like to read the posts but the above terms are meaningless to me
IP = Internet Protocol (a method of data xfer over the internet)
GPRS = General Packet Radio Service (consider this you sending data over a celluar network, e.g picture message, sounds from your mobile to another)
PSTN = Public Switched Telephone Network (analogue phone line, all homes have these)
UHS = Ultra High Speed, it's a product that is used to monitor alarm systems over Polled IP / GPRS / PSTN & can also send Video images for alarm verification.
Hope this helps.
Well put george.
Im still waiting to hear "nutts" marketing hype instead of his conspiracy theory. Nutt, How about a tale of what you are offering and your pricing to the installer, cms and end user. Show us the ins and outs of what your product does and doesn't do, what is required by the cms to use your product, and does your product conform to the standards and if it does what class. How many cms's use your product at present( here in Aus). Where can I get feedback on your product from happy end users.
Its sounding very much like you missed the boat and a case of sour grapes on your side of the fence......again.
Instead of knocking other manufacturers try giving the rest of us real info so we can make an informed decision as what is best for our customers, or is this going to be another case of " I'm taking my bat and ball home now as I don't want to play because I'm loosing the game" again.
I'll look forward to some real info for a change.
Hi bss904 - my first name is Steve - what's yours ?
My products are not the subject of this post and I'm sure most on here already know my web address and contact details if they have any questions.
As you know, the standards are only a guideline and NOT a law.
None.
"missed the boat", "missed the train" - you make it sound like every monitored site in Australia has already converted to IP. As we all know, the train has only very recently left the station. From my knowledge of the Aussie market, it is clear that there were a small number of carraiges and an even smaller number of customers inside.
Let's do some number crunching shall we ?
My guess is that there are approx 750,000 to 1 million monitored sites in Oz (somebody correct me if I'm wrong). I've been told that only about 10,000 of them are Securitel.
I'm going to take an optimistic stab in the dark that the 4 "big guns" have already converted about 2,500 each - totalling 10,000 systems on IP/GPRS.
That would work out to be just 1% of the total market. That early train wasn't that exciting after all.
My view, and it's shared by others, is that there is a much more popular low cost IP train due to leave the station in the next twelve months or so. We hope to be driving that train
Much as I'd love to take up your offer and blow my own trumpet for a while, your distracting the post from it's subject.
Would you like to comment on the quality of the food and wine at the MCM golf tournament ?
Are you part of the MCM team or standards group perhaps ?
Developer of VoIP2Go at ozvoip.net - Alarm compatible VoIP Network
I gather by the lack of answers to what i asked you, your product does not meet the new standards.
My products are not the subject of this post and I'm sure most on here already know my web address and contact details if they have any questions.
As you know, the standards are only a guideline and NOT a law.
None.
"missed the boat", "missed the train" - you make it sound like every monitored site in Australia has already converted to IP. As we all know, the train has only very recently left the station. From my knowledge of the Aussie market, it is clear that there were a small number of carraiges and an even smaller number of customers inside.
Let's do some number crunching shall we ?
My guess is that there are approx 750,000 to 1 million monitored sites in Oz (somebody correct me if I'm wrong). I've been told that only about 10,000 of them are Securitel.
I'm going to take an optimistic stab in the dark that the 4 "big guns" have already converted about 2,500 each - totalling 10,000 systems on IP/GPRS.
That would work out to be just 1% of the total market. That early train wasn't that exciting after all.
My view, and it's shared by others, is that there is a much more popular low cost IP train due to leave the station in the next twelve months or so. We hope to be driving that train
Much as I'd love to take up your offer and blow my own trumpet for a while, your distracting the post from it's subject.
Would you like to comment on the quality of the food and wine at the MCM golf tournament ?
Are you part of the MCM team or standards group perhaps ?
I will unlike you answer your questions.
No I cant comment on the food and wine at the golf because the first I have heard about it was in your post today if infact it did happen as you sugest.
No I have no financial interest in MCM, MCM team or anything to do with the standards group.
I will go one step further and state that I have no affiliation with any of the manufacturers and I judge every product i use on there own merits.
So perhaps you could try again and answer the questions you were asked and stop posting diversionary crap or do you have something to hide.
I have not read the latest standards. I will take advice from my partner in Australia as to whether or not we will modify our boards to meet the new standards.
Err.. it was just a story bss904. There wasn't really a golf tournament.
Nothing to hide. I have flogged our products like a dead horse on this forum and I don't want to bore members any further.
They're not daft - they know what's out there, what the products do and how much they cost.
I'm sure you're a very nice chap bss904, but you and I will have to agree to disagree on a few things. It sounds to me like you're a "Standards Man" through and through and follow the book to the letter - regardless of the author of the book and the methods that were used in writing it.
I'm more of someone who "bats for the customer". I don't mind people like Mr. MCM making rules and regulations, as long as they give everyone a fair go.
The subject of this post is about the integrity of the connection between an IP device and an alarm control panel. In the fifteen years I installed alarms, 99% of standalone signalling equipment I installed either went inside the control unit or inside a tamper protected housing close by. What is there to supervise ? I'd like to know what the standards body are trying to accomplish ?
What can an alarm panel possibly say to an IP device to confirm beyond doubt that it is indeed still "alive" ?
If it provides a loop to the IP board - does that mean all is OK ?
If it provides 12v - does that mean all is OK ?
If the panel modem provides us with voltage or a dial tone - does that mean all is OK ?
I DON'T THINK SO !!!
The only way the control room can possibly know if an alarm panel is working or not is when an alarm signal arrives on their screens. Here's the CRAZY bit... IP signals cost nothing. If the standards bodies were sooooo worried about the state of the panel, why didn't they just insist on an daily or hourly test signal - or something else along those lines ?
Developer of VoIP2Go at ozvoip.net - Alarm compatible VoIP Network
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