VAST and third party recievers

[Tassie Devil]

Thank you for contacting Mr Wilkie and forwarding a copy of your correspondence to Mr Malcolm Turnbull. I have had a meeting with staff from the Office of the Minister for Communications, as well as Departmental staff, and have started to get my head around the issues. The Government today introduced a Bill which has a number of provisions, and it is my understanding that some of them go some way to addressing your concerns. I have already had one briefing on this Bill, and will request more in coming weeks as the Bill progresses through the House.
I think it would be best if we discuss this matter by phone. If you forward me your phone number and a suitable time, I would be more than happy to give you a call and discuss this matter further.
Yours sincerely
Django Merope-Synge

I have responded already with phone number & times. A report on the phone conversation will follow.

John

[gordon_s1942]

One question I would ask is 'Would 'You' pay in excess of $500 to set up a Dish,Cable,Decoder for ONE TV set in a Terrestial Transmission area when a $50 antenna can be connected to as many TV's as you wish to receive EXACTLY the same general programming whether you have a Digital Tuner fitted TV or a HDD Terrestial STB?
So why the exclusion and the massive encryption?
Although one dish can support numerous STB's, each one costs a MINIMUM of $265 for every TV in your house. A TV that is already fitted with a Digital tuner so this makes the current version of VAST expensive when compared to those in Terrestial Transmission areas with a Digital Tuner TV or those who may only have a Non Digital TV connected to a $50 HDD Terrestial decoder easily and freely available at almost any electrical store in that Terrestial Transmission area.
If the VAST stb develops a fault, it and the card have to be 'sent away' which means no TV for at least 7 days but if your on a once a Month mailing route, it could be considerably longer unless you own 2 or more STBs at $260 EACH.

[Tassie Devil]

VERY valid points Gordon - I'll certainly make them to the guy when he finally calls.

Anyone else got similar contributions? Many heads are better than one - particularly when it gets as old as this one

John

One question I would ask is 'Would 'You' pay in excess of $500 to set up a Dish,Cable,Decoder for ONE TV set in a Terrestial Transmission area when a $50 antenna can be connected to as many TV's as you wish to receive EXACTLY the same general programming whether you have a Digital Tuner fitted TV or a HDD Terrestial STB?
So why the exclusion and the massive encryption?
Although one dish can support numerous STB's, each one costs a MINIMUM of $265 for every TV in your house. A TV that is already fitted with a Digital tuner so this makes the current version of VAST expensive when compared to those in Terrestial Transmission areas with a Digital Tuner TV or those who may only have a Non Digital TV connected to a $50 HDD Terrestial decoder easily and freely available at almost any electrical store in that Terrestial Transmission area.
If the VAST stb develops a fault, it and the card have to be 'sent away' which means no TV for at least 7 days but if your on a once a Month mailing route, it could be considerably longer unless you own 2 or more STBs at $260 EACH.

[Tassie Devil]

1. (a) Aerial relatively inexpensive (b) Satellite dish a minimum of $265 each
2. (a) Aerial can supply multiple outlets (b) Satellite a max of two per dish
3. (a) STBs & PVRs relatively inexpensive (b) Satellite STB expensive due to 3 brand restriction + recorders not yet available
4. (a) Easy to set up an aerial - most can do it themselves -> ready to use (b) Setting up the satellite dish a specialised job + hassles getting an encrypted card which then will only work in the one specialised unit
5. (a) Setting up TV reception in multiple rooms relatively simple and inexpensive (b) setting up multiple room FTA TV reception using VAST a VERY expensive preposition both for equipment and cards
6. (a) FTA aerial items freely and relatively cheaply available (b) Satellite equipment for VAST relatively expensive with very little choice of items
7. (a) Repair facilities widely available (b) repair facilities for VAST equipment a hassle with considerable inconvenience because the items have deliberately (and unnecessarily) made more specialised and complex
8. (a) FTA for most people relatively easy & inexpensive to obtain (b) VAST services not only unnecessarily expensive but also made difficult because of card encryption

Anyone add any more?

John

[earlsdon]

Just so they cant pull you up on point 2
2. (a) Aerial can supply multiple outlets (b) Satellite a max of two per dish...

It is not correct - you can have many decoders connected to a single dish. e.g. I use a multi switch and have 7 decoders on a dish with a twin LNB

[admin]

Good stuff tassie devil !

[Tassie Devil]

Just so they cant pull you up on point 2
2. (a) Aerial can supply multiple outlets (b) Satellite a max of two per dish...

It is not correct - you can have many decoders connected to a single dish. e.g. I use a multi switch and have 7 decoders on a dish with a twin LNB

I see what you mean, but with an aerial you can have TV "alive" in a number of rooms whereas with a twin LNB the maximum is two without the switching you describe OR unless the LNB feed was daisy chained from one decoder to the next - in this case all the decoders in the chain might have to be left switched on although this might vary from decoder to decoder. Bottom line feeding TV to a number of rooms is much simpler and less expensive with aerials than under VAST. Is that fair comment on the relative systems?

John

[Fernbay]

A typical multiswitch has two in (one for H, one for V)
8 out is not unusual - all 8 are independent and can get H or V via the multiswitch

[Xplorer]

Thanks for all your effort Tassie Devil. Great stuff.

DVB-T FTA: When considering having 1 x TV Antenna with Masthead Amp (maybe even distribution amp) and cable runs to lounge, living, kitchen, games, bedrooms, patio, shed... it really doesn't come close to the price tag if wanting to do the same with VAST.
DVB-S (supposedly FTA): Each Outlet/TV will require an outlay of $275 per VAST box. Then depending on your setup and desire, you will need to consider the extras to make it work; i.e. multi switches, dual/quad lnbs, extra cable run, extra dish... making this whole saga a VERY expensive option.


So maybe you can add these to your list:

9. (a) FTA Terrestrial have unlimited models and variations of set top boxes and TVs; (b) VAST currently have only 1 set top box;
10. (a) FTA Terrestrial have unlimited models and variations of set top boxes with PVR; (b) VAST have none; and
11. (a) All new TV’s have a digital tuner and capable of receiving FTA Digital Terrestrial; (c) VAST requires 1 box per 1 TV set (houses average 2-4 TV’s per household, VERY expensive for VAST).

Yes I know there are plans for a UEC PVR, plus plans of 2 other manufacturers coming on board; BUT, until they are released and available for purchase, there is still only 1 box available with no PVR capability.

[Tassie Devil]

I've edited the previous ideas and have put them in a table (which will not reproduce below with copy & paste). I will use this table as a further lobby tool so it will be sent to politicians & others.

John


FTA: Aerial System Compared to VAST

1. Receiving signal
(a) Aerial relatively inexpensive
(b) Satellite dish a minimum of $265 each

2. Setting up the receiving signal
(a) Easy to set up an aerial - most can do it themselves -> ready to use
(b) Setting up the satellite dish a specialised job + hassles getting an encrypted card which then will only work in the one specialised unit

3. Wiring the home
(a) Aerial can supply multiple outlets - easy to install
(b) Satellite a max of two per dish with more only possible using an SAT multiswitch

4. Availability of receivers
(a) STBs & PVRs relatively inexpensive and freely available
(b) Satellite STB expensive due to 3 brand restriction (only one presently available) + No recorders presently available

5. Cost of multiple receivers in the home
(a) Multiple STBs & PVRs can be installed in a house at relatively low cost
(b) Multiple units using VAST many times more expensive and more difficult with the use of encrypted cards and restricted choice of units

6. Repair
(a) Repair facilities widely available for most FTA units
(b) Repair facilities for VAST equipment a hassle with considerable inconvenience because the items have deliberately (and unnecessarily) made more specialised and complex

7. Overall expense & convenience
(a) All new TV’s have a digital tuner and capable of receiving FTA Digital Terrestrial. Other units only required for recording. Overall expense not high.
(b) VAST requires a TV set with a tuner that cannot be used + 1 box per 1 TV set . Houses average 2-4 TV’s per household, VERY expensive for VAST

8. Summary
(a) Relatively inexpensive and easy to install
(b) Expensive to install both the satellite dish and receiver + unnecessary complication & expense with encrypted cards tied to only one unit

[gordon_s1942]

A point of correction re multiple connections, as VAST is Verticaly Polarised like Aurora so you can connect as many STBs as you want to a SINGLE output LNB. Its only when you want to mix the like of Austar with both Vertical and Horizontal polarities and VAST on the same dish that you need a Dual at least LNB and maybe multiswitches.
All this adds further costs to the system as compared to receiving a Digital terrestial Signal.
Most but not all STBs (Humax doesnt) actualy are ON when on Standby for Tuner/Card Updates so the 'Daisy Chain' methord works.
One other thing no one seems to have mentioned that to receive VAST you do need a High Definition capable STB or one that conforms to the VAST transmission specifications.
But again, its still ONE STB per TV/Monitor apart from the either currently available Dish or one that needs to be installed.

[Tassie Devil]

A point of correction re multiple connections, as VAST is Verticaly Polarised like Aurora so you can connect as many STBs as you want to a SINGLE output LNB. Its only when you want to mix the like of Austar with both Vertical and Horizontal polarities and VAST on the same dish that you need a Dual at least LNB and maybe multiswitches.
All this adds further costs to the system as compared to receiving a Digital terrestial Signal.
Most but not all STBs (Humax doesnt) actualy are ON when on Standby for Tuner/Card Updates so the 'Daisy Chain' methord works.
One other thing no one seems to have mentioned that to receive VAST you do need a High Definition capable STB or one that conforms to the VAST transmission specifications.
But again, its still ONE STB per TV/Monitor apart from the either currently available Dish or one that needs to be installed.

Gordon, what are the "VAST transmission specifications" that make it difficult? I mean apart from the card encryption. If no card was required AFAIK something like the UltraPlus F-9000HD PVR work as a receiver - correct?

I can see one difficulty with all this is the pollies will be "blinded with science" about the VAST specs. The other problem lies with the commercial broadcasters who dislike recorders, particularly those that can skip through their ads - witness the current crop of so called "Freeview" recorders that have no skip button. And of course the population who will use VAST is politically insignificant. Our only hope is the independents and maybe Turnbull who would like to embarrass the Gillard Government.

But I think we are stirring the pot so something better could emerge. So everyone please chip in so I'm not a lone voice. Those in remote areas should lobby their Federal Government reps. And everyone should harass the Digital Switchover Taskforce and anyone else they can think of.

John

[2rox]

i agree with all your points but one thing you have to relize that fta tv is not free to run tv
the tv stations have share holders and have to be run as profitable companies
is the government paying for the signals to be rebroadcast ?
or do the stations have to find money out of their avertising revenue?
i think the stations would not want to broadcast to a very small market such as remote areas in australia?
im not sure im making any sense but thats never stopped me before

[Mtya]

John,
Very basically, the only difference between other stb's and the VA$T box is the ability to receive the new IRDETO encryption system, ignoring the card etc etc. Some modern boxes are capable of receiving this new system - it is not one specifically designed/manufactured/conceived for VA$T. Australia is far too insignificant for that to happen (about 0.01% of all satellite system/component sales worldwide).

I should add, that with the distribution system re FTA or satellite (as mentioned above), the cost is much greater to achieve the same thing in a satellite system. As a result, the Government should subsidise these systems 100%, seeing as it is their incompetence that has created this bulls**t.

!! Can you list the email addresses you have used to get to the pollies please. I will then add my voice by sending them emails (have recently been unwell, so haven't been able to chase them myself). Thanks!!

Cancel that last sentence - the contact list is here:-

[Tassie Devil]

i agree with all your points but one thing you have to relize that fta tv is not free to run tv
the tv stations have share holders and have to be run as profitable companies
is the government paying for the signals to be rebroadcast ?
or do the stations have to find money out of their avertising revenue?
i think the stations would not want to broadcast to a very small market such as remote areas in australia?

Yes you are making valid points. The commercial stations are just that - commercial, and without advertising they would not exist.

But AFAIK the Government is subsidising (Optus??) for use of the satellite and it is not costing the commercials anything significant as they already use satellite services to send their programs around the country. VAST is all part of the changeover to digital and is part of Government policy and cost.

But the encryption of cards and even the use of cards at all is adding cost to everyone, including Government

[Mtya]

2rox - Yes. the Government is paying to have these signals broadcast, at this stage. As far as TV companies are concerned, they don't care about any of their viewers, let alone us in the country/blackspots.

[Tassie Devil]

John,
Very basically, the only difference between other stb's and the VA box is the ability to receive the new IRDETO encryption system, ignoring the card etc etc. Some modern boxes are capable of receiving this new system - it is not one specifically designed/manufactured/conceived for VA. Australia is far too insignificant for that to happen (about 0.01% of all satellite system/component sales worldwide).

I should add, that with the distribution system re FTA or satellite (as mentioned above), the cost is much greater to achieve the same thing in a satellite system. As a result, the Government should subsidise these systems 100%, seeing as it is their incompetence that has created this bulls**t.

!! Can you list the email addresses you have used to get to the pollies please. I will then add my voice by sending them emails (have recently been unwell, so haven't been able to chase them myself). Thanks!!

Cancel that last sentence - the contact list is here:-

Turnbull (Shadow Minister for Communications): Malcolm.Turnbull.MP@aph.gov.au

Katter (Independent): Bob.Katter.MP@aph.gov.au

Oakeshott (Independent) : Go to and there is a link to a form

Wilkie (Independent): as above

Winsor (Independent): Tony.Windsor.MP@aph.gov.au

Stephen Conroy (Minister for Broadband, Communications and the Digital Economy): minister@dbcde.gov.au

There are links to members (and their contact data) at so contact as many as you think are useful. I have not bothered to recontact Conroy so he might be a good starting point for others. I've been in touch with Turnbull & the independents a few times although only Wilkie has ever responded. The usual procedure is for it to be handled by an army of bureaucrats who take their time responding, usually by letter. So give your address & phone number with anything you send so they have no excuse to ignore you.

Stir guys, stir.

John

[Mtya]

Thanks John.
I will dig through the posts here and formulate an email to send to each of these (insert own expletive). Will post a copy here so anybody can send a version of their own.

[marty 17]

[QUOTE=LeroyPatrol;377823]It was the UltraPlus supplier that has a card running and that was using a version of MCAS from the 7/12/10. There would be no reason for it to not work on the 1200 being another Fortis receiver using similar firmware. Anyway he's back mid next week so I'll find out more then.

Any more news yet Leroy?
Marty

[nfnovice]

Another point Tassie
DVB-T = a) same equipment can pick up any signal available
VAST = b) stb cannot pickup (or watch) other free signals readily available on same set-up - Like Al Jazeera, TVSN, NITV