Multiswitch help...
I have an Ultraplua 900HD with the latest firmware (1.90.20) installed.
I also have a 4 input - 4 output multiswitch which is connected thus:
- Port 1 = D1 V (22k off)
- Port 2 = D1 H (22k off)
- Port 3 = D2 V (22k on)
- Port 4 = IS5 H (22k on)
Which currently feeds two decoders with the other two outputs terminated with a 75ohm resistor terminator.
The problem arises that if I've been watching D1 for a while, and then switch to either IS5 or D2, it seems to take about 60 seconds for the picture to come up. Looking at the signal bar on the info panel, it would suggest the decoder is trying to work out the signal level, or waiting for it to 'settle'.
Is this usual? If not, what can I do to cure it? I'm concerned I might be causing some damage somewhere if left unchecked.
The other thing is, that I bought a dual LNB which allows simulataneous reception of both D1 V/H signals to all decoders connected to the multiswitch. This seems to work fine, however I noticed that some signals are much less in strength than when I had a single LNB on D1. I'm using a Hills 80cm dish atm.
Would a 0.3 noise figure dual LNB improve the signal quality level over a 0.6 noise figure dual LNB? If so, by how much roughly?
Any help would be much appreciated!
Baldrick.
Last edited by baldrick_nz; 30-06-11 at 10:53 PM.
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The correct usage of Multiswitches.
G'Day Cobber,
Leave the 22 KHz off altogether. You only need that with a DiSEqC switch.
The other observation is that being 4 input, it is most likely for use with a Universal LNB.
Hi band, H & V
Lo band, H & V
More than likely printed on the unit.
They generate their own internal 22 KHz for switching Hi to Lo band.
Whilst you may get them to work as you have described, you will have problems.
Kindest Regards, " The Druid ".
Thanks for that.Originally Posted by beer4life
G'Day Cobber,
Leave the 22 KHz off altogether. You only need that with a DiSEqC switch.
The other observation is that being 4 input, it is most likely for use with a Universal LNB.
Hi band, H & V
Lo band, H & V
More than likely printed on the unit.
They generate their own internal 22 KHz for switching Hi to Lo band.
Whilst you may get them to work as you have described, you will have problems.
Kindest Regards, " The Druid ".
I used to have a diseqc/splitter configuation where multiple decoders could run independantly of each other via multiple satellites, but with the recent addition of Aussie channels on D1 V, that became a problem when someone wanted to watch Freeview on D1 H.
So, are you saying that all Lnb's in a multiswitch arrangement have to be universals in order for it to work properly?
And, what of the 0.3 vs. 0.6 noise figure LNB's? Is there a marked difference in terms of signal quality between them?
Overnight I wondered whether I should go back to my diseqc/splitter arrangement, but this time include the dual LNB into the equation as well.
By re-naming D1 on my decoders to D1 (H) and D1 (V), I should be able to get around the issue. So, my diseqc arrangement would look like this..
- Port 1 = D1 (H)
- Port 2 = D1 (V)
- Port 3 = D2
- Port 4 = IS5
Ofcourse, this would mean that I'd get both pols from both D2 and IS5, as opposed to the multiswitch arrangement where the H pol dropped off D2 and V pol dropped of IS5. As there is very little our family would watch off D2 H atm, any issues would be limited.
Now do you think this arrangement would work instead of a multiswitch?
Cheers.
Multiswitch or DiSEqC.
G'Day Cobber,
Sorry If I misled you, they can be, but not necessarily so. Use the multiswitch as I suggested, but with twin 10700 LNB for D1. NO 22 KHz.
My experience has been that you should only use Universal if you require the Lo Ku band. Being broader bandwidth, their S/N ratio seems to be worse.
Put D2 and IS5 on the appropriate V or H input of the MS.
If you have to get a new MS, get an 8/9 (the extra one is for Terrestrial), that would give either 4 satellites with independent H & V or 2 Satellites with Quad Universal LNBs.
The 22 KHz is generated by the MS and it gets confused if you try to send it from the decoder.
The 22 KHz required to operate a Universal is a tone burst sent in breaks of the 22 KHz Tone used for switching the DiSEqC switch.
Kindest Regards, " The Druid ".
So, what settings (in terms of diseqc, 22k, etc..) would you use when using aG'Day Cobber,
Sorry If I misled you, they can be, but not necessarily so. Use the multiswitch as I suggested, but with twin 10700 LNB for D1. NO 22 KHz.
My experience has been that you should only use Universal if you require the Lo Ku band. Being broader bandwidth, their S/N ratio seems to be worse.
Put D2 and IS5 on the appropriate V or H input of the MS.
If you have to get a new MS, get an 8/9 (the extra one is for Terrestrial), that would give either 4 satellites with independent H & V or 2 Satellites with Quad Universal LNBs.
The 22 KHz is generated by the MS and it gets confused if you try to send it from the decoder.
The 22 KHz required to operate a Universal is a tone burst sent in breaks of the 22 KHz Tone used for switching the DiSEqC switch.
Kindest Regards, " The Druid ".
powered unit such as the one you suggest?
Until I can get to the bottom of the prob with the Ultraplus and 22k tone, I've
gone back to my original configuration. It's a bit messy, but works until I can
get this prob sorted.
Could the 10750 dual LNB be the problem? I mean, will it work along side of a
11300 and 5150 LNB on the other port?
I've noticed that when your watching anything on D2/IS5 (22k on), after a short
while (a few minutes) the quality level dies altogether, as so does the pic. All
other channels using D1 (22k off) continue to work fine. The only way to restore
D2/IS5 is to put the decoder into stand by and then turn it back on again.
The other decoder (Dish TV) works fine on all channels regardless.
Weird.
Any further help would be much appreciated!
I'll say it again, No 22 KHz from the decoder for the MS.
In Installation Menu you input the LNB type and Local Oscillator for each Satellite. The LO must be the one as printed on the relevant LNB.
If you were using a Universal LNB, there are 3 LO Frequencies required, Hi, Lo and the change over frequency, which generates the Tone Burst required to change from Hi to Lo Local Oscillator.
Perhaps this will show the difference between 22 KHz and the Tone Burst.
Sorry BFL that is not correct. He is using a 22khz multiswitch not a diseqc switch.
No 22khz from the receivers means LNB inputs A & B are selected. 22khz present means the multi switch selects inputs C & D.
13/18v are used to select horizontal or vertical polarisation as normal by the receiver, but the input LNB's are permanently locked into either H or V. The LNB's themselves are never fed the 22khz, it is used purely by the switch to select (or not) a pair on inputs.
Any receiver can select any input without disturbing the others. Typically you would have H & V for 2 satellites, switchable to any/all of the receivers.
e.g. this one from sciteq in WA .
Last edited by MyComputer; 01-07-11 at 09:28 PM.
Sorry Cobber, You are totally wrong in your interpretation of the protocol of DiSEqC.Sorry BFL that is not correct.
No 22khz from the receivers means LNB inputs A & B are selected. 22khz present means the multi switch selects inputs C & D.
13/18v are used to select horizontal or vertical polarisation as normal by the receiver, but the input LNB's are permanently locked into either H or V. The LNB's themselves are never fed the 22khz, it is used purely by the switch to select (or not) a pair on inputs.
Any receiver can select any input without disturbing the others. Typically you would have H & V for 2 satellites, switchable to any/all of the receivers.
e.g. this one from sciteq in WA .
The Tone Burst for Hi/Lo is generated by the MS, and that is why it is more than likely that any 22 KHz from the decoder causes confusion.
Give me your explanation as to why the MS is flagged as such.
I suggest that you experiment with one, as I have, to prove this point.
I didn't need one, but bought one to clarify this issue.
Not only you, but many others, are transfixed about the operation of MS as opposed to DiSEqC switches.
Kindest Regards, " The Druid ".
as per my last post BFL - he does NOT have a diseqc switch.
Multiswitches do not generate any tones, they just switch between LNB inputs based on the tone (and voltages) they do or do not receive from the receiver.
I have 3 multiswitches here, so I know exactly how they work.
the LNB's are dedicated to one position and polarity and that never changes, the LNB's NEVER get a 22khz signal from the switch, the MS uses the 22khz to interpret which "pair" in of inputs the receiver wants to connect to.
The multiswitches sole purpose in life is to switch any of the (4 in this case) receivers between any of the 4 dedicated LNB's. You could use a single polarity LNB on the inputs if you wanted to as long as it was oriented to the appropriate H/V position (and I have also done that on occasion).
Last edited by MyComputer; 01-07-11 at 11:07 PM.
Sounds good to me, MyComputer.
Your explanation is correct. It is certainly the way the multiswitch you have illustrated is intended to work.
Last edited by tristen; 01-07-11 at 11:34 PM.
vk6xlr (02-07-11)
I hate this business of taking anyone to task, but all you need to do to prove your assertions, is to put a CRO on the inputs of the MS without any Decoders connected. You will see that the Tone Burst for the appropriate inputs is generated by the MS.
PS:- How remiss of me, that only applies to a powered MS, but the same applies to an un-powered one if the decoder connected has the 22 KHz switched off.
Methinks perhaps you don't know what a CRO is?
Last edited by beer4life; 01-07-11 at 11:56 PM.
Sorry, but methinks this is a cro
Sorry beer4life, I just couldn`t help myself.
Last edited by Min; 01-07-11 at 11:39 PM.
Blown Humax 5400Z, Strong SRT 4658X, Strong 4663X and DM 518.
beer4life (01-07-11)
me too, so I'll let google do the dirty work
Sorry BFL, I just want to set the record straight and you are giving our poor cousin in NZ the wrong info.
I still think you are confusing a diseqc switch with a 22khz multiswitch.
I've no intention of educating the mis-informed, however I do suggest that you consult the originators and patent holders of the DiSEqC protocol, EUTELSAT, here:-me too, so I'll let google do the dirty work
Sorry BFL, I just want to set the record straight and you are giving our poor cousin in NZ the wrong info.
I still think you are confusing a diseqc switch with a 22khz multiswitch.
instead of the erroneous information elicited by your Google Search.
There is by far too much unfounded speculation being disseminated by self appointed egotists.
With all due respects to your input, please consult the experts, not "wanna bes".
Kindest Regards, " The Druid ".
Spot on! With the switch indicated in the photo.
Simply put:
To use I/P1 the reciever must send 18V/22kHz to the switch.
To use I/P2 the reciever must send 13V/22kHz to the switch.
To use I/P3 the reciever must send 18V/0kHz to the switch.
To use I/P4 the reciever must send 13V/0kHz to the switch.
I have several similar switches and they work as above.
His MS does not have enough ports for V & H
He really needs to have a bigger multi switch with 4 H & 4 V polarity that can feed multiple receivers.
And yes with these you do need to select 22khz on the ports that use them.
Just my humble opinion
Yes your switch is a diseqc switch which supports the 4 extra LNB inputs (via 22khz to the LNB) aka a "universal type LNB"
I can see now where the confusion lies, as your diseqc switch is labelled a "multiswitch" too.
This wasn't what the OP was asking about though, he has a simple 22khz multiswitch.
The correct usage of Multiswitches.
G'Day again,
I dare say that you can manually use the H/V & 22 KHz/0 KHz for 4 input MS,
but do tell me how you do that with 8 or 16 input MS.
Dish setting for each of the input ports.
The correct way is to use the DiSEqC 1.0/1.1 switching for 4 input and the DiSEqC 1.2 or higher for up to 16 input port selection.
The constant 22KHz is designed for a 2 port DiSEqC switch.
The Tone Burst is made up of the following modulated 22 KHz data stream sent in breaks of the constant 22 Khz if used.
Sorry for the delay in replying, had a cataract operation for monocular diplopia on Thursday. Can see much clearer with a single PC screen now.
Kindest Regards, " The Druid ".
Wow, this has caused a bit of heated debate!
Thanks to you all for your help, it comes much appreciated.
I have emailed the following to the retailer I brought the switch from. Hopefully he'll come up with a solution. I'll paste it below so you guys can read it too. It may give a better understanding of what I'm trying to achieve, and any suggestions as to what I could do to resolve it would be much appreciated...
Over the past couple of days I've been trying to get the 4x4 multiswitch, dual LNB and Ultraplus 900HD (which I bought from you) to play nice with my IS5 and D2 existing set up.
My problem is, that whenever I view a channel from anything sourced from the 22k 'on' signal, the picture and signal quality die after just a few minutes, however all channels from the 22k 'off' signal continue to play. The only way I can get the 22k 'on' is to put the receiver in stand-by and then turn it back on again, where the cycle just repeats itself.
This is the set-up I used...
Port 1 = D1 H (22k off)
Port 2 = D1 V (22k off)
Port 3 = D2 V (22k on)
Port 4 = IS5 H (22k on)
I tried the way you suggested (D1 on 22k on), but that didn't seem to work. Also, it has been pointed out to me that having the D1 in the 22k off position is beneficial to customers who wish to use this system for their Sky as well.
These are the things I have done to remedy the situation and things I have noticed along the way. Hopefully together we can make the system work.
Please note that with everything tried using the multiswitch, my other receiver (Dish TV 7010 PVR) works perfectly after a few adjustments, across all channels.
Firstly a preamble about my system, which may seem a litle laborious to read through, but hang in there because it'll give you a better picture of where I'm heading.
I currently have three dishes installed behind my garage, all with uninterrupted views to their intended birds. There is a 1.8m (IS5), 80cm Hills (D1) and 60cm Winegard (ex. Sky, D2). These have all been feed into a diseqc/splitter combination which allows for both receivers in the house to watch channels simultaneously of each other, and worked fine until the D1 V channels came along. From there, the cables are feed through duct underground to the house where they are terminated at the wall with 'f' type wall plates. The cables are dedicated for each receiver from the diseqc/splitter combo. The RG6 flooded cable lengths are approx 30-35m each.
At the dish site, using an old Innovia receiver, I get the following signal quality using the existing LNBs...
IS5 (5150, 50%)
D1 (11300, ex Sky, 88% on SBS)
D2 (11300, ex Sky, 78% on RT)
On the Ultraplus in the house, using the same LNBs, this translates to..
IS5 (74%)
D1 (SBS 82% - Nine mux also 82%)
D2 (RT 82%)
Now I realise these quality meters are merely a guide, and I acknowledge some ambiguity between receivers, but the system does work.
With the Dual LNB, Multiswitch bought from you, the best I can achieve signal wise on the Ultraplus inside is...
D1 H (82%)
D1 V (74% SBS, 67% Nine mux)
D2 V (74% RT)
IS5 H (74%)
After a few Internet searches, and bearing in mind that the other receiver works flawlessly with the multiswitch, I came to the conclusion that the problem was more likely to be with the Ultraplus than anywhere else. So, following your instructions for firmware installation, I downloaded the latest firmware from the Austech forum (1.09.20), and installed it into the Ultraplus. This seems to have made some general system improvements, but didn't fix the problem with the multiswitch. So,
I just can't understand why the pictures and signal on any channel using 22k on die within minutes of being selected.
Even the signal itself dies (let alone quality), which would indicate a switching eror - but where?
There must be something I'm missing, but what?
And why is it that the other receiver just works with the multiswitch when the Ultraplus seemingly doesn't?
I look forward to hearing back from you soon with a way forward, so we can watch TV through our Ultraplus, which is otherwise awesome. Thanks!
In the meantime, I've gone back to the tried-and-true diseqc/splitter combo we had before, which will work fine until the wife wants to watch something on Freeview while I'm watching something on Nine.
Cheers,
Someone has suggested I try another port on the switch into the Ultraplus, as sometimes the Ultraplus can be a bit picky as to which port works best. Has anyone had any experience concerning this?
Oh, and MyComputer, my multiswitch looks exactly the same as the one in your picture, except that it's made by 'GOG', and doesn't have a provision for an external power source (ie: no 24v connection on the side).
Thanks again!
Last edited by baldrick_nz; 02-07-11 at 08:45 PM.
No retailer is erudite enough to solve your problem. Why won't you try what I originally suggested and prove me wrong?
Last edited by beer4life; 02-07-11 at 09:11 PM.
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