Reply With QuoteI'm not familiar with that panel but I have a strong feeling that you should enable "First to open / last to close".
Also, the comms fail might be because the phone number is all blurry...
I too had thought that maybe it was attempting re-communication. Shouldn't the monitoring centre be able to tell that our system has made a lot of failed calls to them? They were quick enough to call up when another site's dialler stopped working.
Here's the panel's config too...
I'm not familiar with that panel but I have a strong feeling that you should enable "First to open / last to close".
Also, the comms fail might be because the phone number is all blurry...
The first config page should be using Format "1" Contact ID, while format "3" is used for Domestic Siren which is used to ring a phone or mobile.
As the manual says below
0 Local
Communicator is disabled
1 Contact I.D.
DTMF format for control rooms
2 Pager
Reports in 4 + 2 DTMF format. Phone numbers can be programmed via code pad in normal
operation.
3 Domestic Siren
Domestic dialling via a siren tone format. Call can be kissed off via the star (*) key on a DTMF
phone. Phone numbers can be programmed via code pad in the run mode.
It won't send comms fails as it's not enabled. Everything you've shown looks fine except your dialler format which should be a 1 otherwise the control room will get squat. If all areas are armed at the same time, it should be one phone call. Sending multiple calls is a problem with either the panel it's self, or the phone line IE: Noise either audible or subaudible, other devices on the same line or too many devices etc. Has anyone actually taken the time to listen to an arming cycle with a butinski?
Last edited by Drift; 15-05-13 at 11:27 PM.
I would enable "Fail to Communicate" Event Report so that if you are having phone line issues it will report this after a successfully handshake.
I think instead of all this guessing your first step should be to get a printout from your monitoring centre of just what is being communicated by the panel.
One other thing - if each area is reporting under its own client code then I dont think that they can be sent in the one transmission
Format should be "1" NOT "3" it is happening 6 times because it has 6 dial attempts
That's an interesting point. I've never actually tried that with a Reliance/NX panel. I'd have thought a single call though as each Contact ID string contains the acct no. So unless the system caches the acct no, for some reason it should be possible in theory.Originally Posted by watchdog
Programming First to Open Last to Close will only allow the Panel to send a disarm when the first area is disarmed and an arming when the last area is armed , the O/C will be sent in Area 0 , Expanded Contact ID should be programmed on all NX system as it will report to the control room which keypad / expander etc has faulted etc, instead of just giving a vague description, if you had o/c times the daily dialler test is really scam money and a rip off
Maybe so, however your argument holds little weight, to me anyway. From my understanding you are taking a concept and looking at the basics, what about the costs involved in developing the technology in the first place. The manning of a control room etc etc etc.
Your Ip based solution is only secure as the communications link between the two, saying it is IP based, how does the data get from the premises to the cloud, most likely by a pair of copper wires, the same as a dialler, same problem.
A dedicated GPRS unit single sim with no PTSN backup would appear to me to be more secure, can bounce of another tower, is secured in the lock box and polls itself, reports events without incurring call costs. If the phone line / internet is cut it will still work.
With your system and correct me if I am wrong, it is dependant on a third party and money being paid to them, a ISP, yes the GPRS is also requiring a third party, however no extra charge is required by the end user. So what is the data plan costing the end user to have, is this mentioned to them when it is sold. $4.95 a month plus the data plan. What would happen if said son downloads excess porn that month and the internet gets cut?
I find it stupid that when it comes to security etc, people always want the cheapest option to protect probably the largest purchase a house / business and lives.
I agree it is about choice, but with all the facts. To me diallers are the past, and IP is a band aid fix.
After re reading your post, I am still confused as to how it is a scam, all you said was that the industry can charge what it wants, with the only proof offered is the cost of a sim card?
And that pretty much well hits the nail on the head.
I always ask people the following.
If your worst case senario happens and you physically cant open your doors to trade due to Fire, theft, Fraud etc. how many days can you afford those doors to be closed for before you A/ Have no staff and or B/ have no clients / business.
Then put a dollar figure on that and you have a ball park figure on what your security budget can be.
What you're describing is the basis of effective Risk Management. However many people mistakenly ignore this, figuring they are insured. That is where Business Continuity Planning becomes relevant. There is no point getting a payout cheque from an insurer weeks or months after an incident. Even though that may pay for damage, the customers will have left and the business itself may not survive.
I find that there is nobody more qualified than the home or business owner to make that decision.
I fully respect that position. I leave decisions on the most appropriate technology to others.
I bat for the end user. Without going into too much detail, all I can tell you is that your average Aussie pays 4 times the amount for GPRS monitoring than their American counterpart. I know how much GPRS equipment costs, I know how much GPRS data costs and I know Aussie Bureaus and consumers are being shafted.
Re the costs - making 1 or 2 phone calls a day would be fair enough, but $300/month in phone calls is total BS. If we need to get a GRPS unit installed so be it...but I'd like to get to the bottom as to why it's gone crazy in the first place. This will be a deciding factor in who gets this work in the future
As for IP monitoring - I'd do it for my home - but not for this business. ICT is my day job....I know where all the points of failure (and more importantly blame) could end upAnd there'd still need to be a GPRS backup then anyway.
Hmm indeed I will be doing this! There's only a single client code for the entire system from what I could see. No account codes were listed under each partition.
The format value is interesting tho. Previously an external GSM+landline dialler was used for some obscure reason I can't remember. There was no contact ID reporting back then. However when this monitoring company took over they sent a tech out to reconfigure the panel so the internal dialler and contact ID would be used.
So what it's looking like is they have sent out a monkey with NFI what he was doing? Might also explain why entry delay got turned off on the zone that has a keypad in it.
Last edited by Earthling; 16-05-13 at 12:47 PM.
What you seem to ignore are:
a) Costs of cellular network setup. In Europe, the Middle East or Asia you can throw up three cell towers and cover a million paying customers. To build one in this country given the population density is a different matter. That is also why our mobile voice charges are so high. Is there some gouging going on? Probably and that will come from a lack of competition surely. However to argue that we are being ripped off simply because it's cheaper in America is a stunningly simplistic argument.
It may shock you to realise that lots of things are cheaper in Murica. However it's not a grand conspiracy. I'm sure you also had a bigger house in Thailand than you could possibly afford in Sydney. The home security market in this country is also far smaller. There are single stations in America who monitor more 'lines' than our entire market.
b) Apropos the monitoring rates, again there are local labour costs and other costs in running a business. You know, one with licences, insurance, wages, on-costs. Not the kind of awesome monitoring centre run in a shed claiming to be super-awesome but just not, you know, graded to prove their claims.
Having said that, I would question the value proposition of a bureau who charges $10+ and subcontracts that monitoring for $2, as the end-user is getting a two dollar service for ten bucks, and that two dollar service doesn't buy a whole lot of quality.
Last edited by downunderdan; 16-05-13 at 01:03 PM.
Let's just remind ourselves on the original topic of this thread. It was started by a consumer who has a monthly bill of $300 for the phone calls made by an alarm panel. The justification offered by his Alarm Company was 'Australian Standards'. His monitoring company failed to alert him to the large number of failed calls and redials at 31c a time. Welcome to the Australian Security Industry.
I wonder if this is what Dan means by a 'whole lot of quality'?
Steve, you are conflating the issues and muddying the waters again.
I too am not convinced this has anything to do with Australian Standards at all, and frankly it looks like someone was being taken advantage of, at worst, or someone has a claim to settle for improper service at best.
The reference to Australian Standards does remind me of a matter before the ACCC some time ago. Link here:
And yet you've gone instead and had a spray and are now writing off the whole "Australian Security Industry" from which you have chosen to alienate yourself.
My reference to quality etc. pertained to shabby security companies in general and has nothing to do with what happened here, about which I have very little detail.
Mate, you're the one flogging a dead horse here.
Last edited by downunderdan; 16-05-13 at 02:02 PM.
Are you saying that there are two standards of basic service by monitoring centres. One for them & one for bureaus
...and who gave you the power to label any company that is either not graded, or is charging a lower monthly fee than you do as 'shabby'?
There may be and I suppose that would depend on the provider. However that wasn't my point. My point was that there are middlemen who are onselling a rock-bottom wholesale service at a retail premium and adding no particular value. In most cases the end-user doesn't know what they're getting and very well isn't getting what they deserve for the amount they are paying. In some cases they don't even know who is providing the service. There is a lot of smoke and mirrors.
Fees are a commercial matter and largely irrelevant. However to your other point let me say very clearly, any Australian monitoring station that is providing services to the public and not certified to AS2201.2 (graded) is shabby. I hope that clarifies the matter. If anyone takes offence to that, they're welcome to apply for a certification audit and we can see how competent they really are, rather than what their website claims. But they won't... Will they...
Last edited by downunderdan; 16-05-13 at 06:32 PM.
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