Originally Posted by cwispy
You may want to read my post again mate. Not once have I referred to not baking the chip, I said the "board". Anyone silly enough to bake the fully populated board again deserves what happens to all the components.
Apart from the fact that it actually fixes the fault rather than just masking it as the clamps do. Again I didnt say it overcomes the manufacturing/design fault.
I dont know if your just making a statement here or trying to address something that I said, but I see where this has any relevance to anything that I said.
I think you have in mind a oven turned up on full with glowing components, no I am referring to gentle heating in a dry environment to remove moisture. This IS applied to the whole board and is done as a normal practice. Because of the times involved it is not practical to apply this to a single component. I can just see you standing there for HOURS directing gentle heat onto a single component hmmmm? Do you know what the specification is for this?
Get it into your head once and for all. I AM TALKING ABOUT THE PROPER PROCEDURE FOR REWORKING OF BGAs, its not something I made up.
And yes the dry heat is applied to the WHOLE BOARD, anyone foolish enough to try and heat up the whole board to reflow, of even close to reflow would probably destroy it. I can't remember the exact temperatures and the times and temperatures and they vary between BGA packages anyway, its part of the individual device specification. But we are talking here in the range of 50deg C for 4 hours in a fully controlled environment, well in normal operating range. And I am saying if your NOT doing this then you risk destroying the GPU on its removal.
and LOL @ exploding components. I just see certain people putting a mobo in the microwave on full
Cwispy, I think that you could also do with reading my posts more closely, I said in a ideal world one would remove reball and replace the GPU AND replace the x-clamps to prevent board flex so it does not reoccur.
I am simply making statement here that xclamps while not ideal by themselves if done properly it does the job, they don't come back.
I am not sure why you would have a problem with that.
Just resoldering the GPU is not ideal either and has its own unavoidable risks.
I'm gonna agree with nsdn. Although I don't know much of the technical aspect of the 360 or re-balling. I did over 100 X-clamp fix and only a couple came back. I know i did over 100 because this is my 6th order of the xcm cooler (25 lot) from divineo.
-X-clamp
-artic silver
-extra fan (xcm core cooler) (abit noisy, but who cares)
I think we are both guilty of not reading properly, or reading things into each others posts that were not there or intended in that way. I apologise if you took offence to anything I wrote. It was certainly not intended as a personal insult.
Please see my comment above.I think you have in mind a oven turned up on full with glowing components, no I am referring to gentle heating in a dry environment to remove moisture. This IS applied to the whole board and is done as a normal practice. Because of the times involved it is not practical to apply this to a single component. I can just see you standing there for HOURS directing gentle heat onto a single component hmmmm? Do you know what the specification is for this?
You seem to be forgetting that there is more than one way to do BGA rework. I have spoken to enough manufacturers of rework equipment, and businesses who specialise in training and certification and all have said the same thing, BGA/LGA rework has changed a lot and there are many ways to achieve the same result. Not all of them may be suitable to your environment or process. Not once have I discounted what you had to say, nor do I doubt what you have said about the manufacturing processes you have had hands on experience with are not true. But after the last 6 months researching this I know a lot about the different processes and methods involved and the different equipment and procedures involved that one can choose from. They might all achieve the same things in the end, but the way they get there differs a lot. I know some people who are doing it all by hand with hotair tools and a kitchen stove....
I am not against the use of the clamps as an extra part of the fix along with the bga rework of the chip. I am just not a fan of them as a fix on their own as a lot of people suggest they are. That is all that I meant. If you use them and they are successful for you, then that is great. Myself I would use them as an extra part to the fix only.I am simply making statement here that xclamps while not ideal by themselves if done properly it does the job, they don't come back.
I am not sure why you would have a problem with that.
Just resoldering the GPU is not ideal either and has its own unavoidable risks.
I wont respond in the thread again as I think we have gotten too much off topic. Thanks for the interesting discussion nsdn.
What would you do if your server was stolen or failed beyond repair?
http://www.2000cn.com.au/shadowprotect.html
No worries Cwispy
I knew this would be controversial when I posted it, there are always going to be differant views and approaches to the same problem. I do have concerns about people without the correct equipment and procedures, while it will work MOST of the time, there will be failures, but it is statistical rather than a definite if you do it that way then it will fail!
I think the most important thing is that the problem is resolved and people that have to pay are happy campers.
take care dude
What you said wasn't controversial at all mate. PPL should read what you say more carefully.
Just so everyone knows. NSDN is the 2nd best console repairer/modder on these forums.
Of course I am the best, but I am retired.
as soon as i saw this conversation brewing i said to myself cbf replying ahha now that it is over though....
I asked my lecturer once if i could havea key to the lab where the BGA equiptment was and that way i could offer re-balling as a service he agreed t hough i dont have time anymore unfortunately.
X clamps: Effective for many people but the effictiveness of this DEPENDS on how bad the stress fractures are in the solder and the flex is.If it isnt bad then sure yeh go ahead do the x-clamp..
BGA REBALLING: however if your board is screwed and the stress fractures are really bad the only real way is to re ball the GPU however this will accomplish nothing at all unless a lead solder is used and mosti mportantly what causes the stress fractures is addressed ie:"the x-clamps".
FTO King
Any tech doing xbox360 re-balling repairs will be using leaded solder.
By reading this, you have already given me control over a tiny slice of your mind
you would hope so
Alright, for all those who have been following this thread, here's a little update: I accepted nsdn's gracious offer to help me with the RROD fix (thank you once again, mate!). Box went on holiday across the continent and came back.
Results: Sweet! It's working again!
I will put the box to the test and update periodically on this post. Stay tuned!
great to hear mate
No Probs kneurotik, glad I could help, and thanks for the update and the kind words.
Not sure if this is an endorsement or not but I just had a SEALED EB games unit come in for a flashing, and it had a x-clamp repair done on it. It actually had TWO EB seals on it, one on top of the other....in tact though....
Interesting
Wow.. adds a new dimension to the definition of "dodgy". And at the same time endorsing the x-clamp fix. LOL.
An update: my 360 is working perfectly after 3hrs of playtime. Did a lot of graphics intensive stuff (executing special moves, camera pans etc) just to stress test the fix. Still good.
10 hrs and still counting.
Lol got one here I repaired 14 months ago well my daughter has now and pretty well hammered still going strong
25 hrs.
Very stable, no problems.
Everytime when playing the 360, I am grateful to nsdn for his fantastic workmanship.
Just an update (I haven't forgotten my promise, ndsn)- lost count of the number of hours but it has been a solid 5 months and the set is still going strong.
Happy times.
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