UEC 4639 Signal Drop Tuner 1 to Tuner 2 SOLUTION

[beer4life]

OK, I just did the signal check with 1 LNBF cable connected to UEC 4639 Tuner 2 & loop thru back to tuner 1.
tuner 1 signal quality was so low 32 with Signal strength flickering between 0 & 70, it couldn't get a lock on C1 & even though I got lock on Tuner 2 the box would not go any further.
So I played around with reconnecting the box with Tuner 1 looping back to Tuner 2, got lock & tuned to channel 3 SBS on D3.

Pulled the power plug & reversed the cables again so Tuner 2 was connected to LNBF & was looping back to tuner 1.
Got signal lock on Tuner 1 this time, which as I just discovered is important.
Signal figures on
D3 11928 ( No SBS TV here according to Sat Beams.)
Tuner 1 Strength = 90 Quality = 73
Tuner 2 Strength =100 Quality = 95
C1 12567
Tuner 1 Strength = 70 Flickering Quality = 35 no lock then lock then no lock. Ber flashing up numbers, too quick to read.
Tuner 2 Strength = 85 Quality = 87

Pulled the power plug again & reversed the cables again so Tuner 1 was connected to LNBF & was looping back to tuner 2.

Same results just reverse Tuner 1 & 2 of above.

Pulled the power plug again connected the cables again so Tuner 1 & Tuner 2 were connected to the same Dual output LNBF direct on their own cable (no loop thru)
Do you mean Twin input, or Dual polarity H&V output?
Very confusing.
You must remember that the LNB Voltage selects a BLOCK of freguencies according to Polarity and will be different for each Satellite.
Using Attenuators only acerbates the problem, not cure it.
D3 11928
Tuner 1 Strength = 100 Quality = 100
Tuner 2 Strength = 100 Quality = 100
C1 12567
Tuner 1 Strength = 100 Quality = 85
Tuner 2 Strength = 100 Quality = 85

Pulled the power plug again connected the cables again so Tuner 1 & Tuner 2 were connected to the same Dual output LNBF indirectly via a 2 in 8 out Spaun Multiswitch shared with MyStar box, on their own cable (no loop thru)
D3 11928 ( No SBS here.)
Tuner 1 Strength = 100 Quality = 87
Tuner 2 Strength = 100 Quality = 87
C1 12567
Tuner 1 Strength = 100 Quality = 68
Tuner 2 Strength = 100 Quality = 68

When the dust settles and various providers apply their own encryption, there will be many peeved chappies. The providers will make sure that you can only receive their subscribed channels on their equipment.
To my mind, that kills off any conjecture here.

Con
Does support my post on options, that best is direct no loop thru.
Hope that helps.

EDIT: I thought I should add here that this was done using a 1.2M Fixed dish with a Sharp Dual Output, Dual Polarity LNBF.

The show isn't over 'til the fat Lady sings.

[Tiny]

Originally Posted by Tiny

OK, I just did the signal check with 1 LNBF cable connected to UEC 4639 Tuner 2 & loop thru back to tuner 1.
tuner 1 signal quality was so low 32 with Signal strength flickering between 0 & 70, it couldn't get a lock on C1 & even though I got lock on Tuner 2 the box would not go any further.
So I played around with reconnecting the box with Tuner 1 looping back to Tuner 2, got lock & tuned to channel 3 SBS on D3.

Pulled the power plug & reversed the cables again so Tuner 2 was connected to LNBF & was looping back to tuner 1.
Got signal lock on Tuner 1 this time, which as I just discovered is important.
Signal figures on
D3 11928 ( No SBS TV here according to Sat Beams.) Is on VAST; That's the transponder frequency as shown on Decoder tuner info. When on VAST SBS Chanel 3 in Tasmanian VAST Boquet.
Tuner 1 Strength = 90 Quality = 73
Tuner 2 Strength =100 Quality = 95
C1 12567
Tuner 1 Strength = 70 Flickering Quality = 35 no lock then lock then no lock. Ber flashing up numbers, too quick to read.
Tuner 2 Strength = 85 Quality = 87

Pulled the power plug again & reversed the cables again so Tuner 1 was connected to LNBF & was looping back to tuner 2.

Same results just reverse Tuner 1 & 2 of above.

Pulled the power plug again connected the cables again so Tuner 1 & Tuner 2 were connected to the same Dual output LNBF direct on their own cable (no loop thru)
Do you mean Twin input, or Dual polarity H&V output? Actually it is a sharp dual polarity & dual output (2 legs, both have H&V)
Very confusing.
You must remember that the LNB Voltage selects a BLOCK of freguencies according to Polarity and will be different for each Satellite. Irrelevant for this topic, VAST & this decoder only use Vertical Polarity.
Using Attenuators only acerbates the problem, not cure it.
D3 11928
Tuner 1 Strength = 100 Quality = 100
Tuner 2 Strength = 100 Quality = 100
C1 12567
Tuner 1 Strength = 100 Quality = 85
Tuner 2 Strength = 100 Quality = 85

Pulled the power plug again connected the cables again so Tuner 1 & Tuner 2 were connected to the same Dual output LNBF indirectly via a 2 in 8 out Spaun Multiswitch shared with MyStar box, on their own cable (no loop thru)
D3 11928 ( No SBS here.) As above, decoder must have wrong number or Sat Beams is not up to date, still shows up, would you like a screen shot?
Tuner 1 Strength = 100 Quality = 87
Tuner 2 Strength = 100 Quality = 87
C1 12567
Tuner 1 Strength = 100 Quality = 68
Tuner 2 Strength = 100 Quality = 68

When the dust settles and various providers apply their own encryption, there will be many peeved chappies. The providers will make sure that you can only receive their subscribed channels on their equipment.
To my mind, that kills off any conjecture here.

Con
Does support my post on options, that best is direct no loop thru.
Hope that helps.

EDIT: I thought I should add here that this was done using a 1.2M Fixed dish with a Sharp Dual Output, Dual Polarity LNBF.

You're missing the point, as posted before, UEC has suggested the attenuator as a fix for single LNB cable connection where the signal on the second tuner is being cut in half due to the signal from tuner 1 being amplified & in some cases too strong . The attenuator fixes the problem. That's been proved.
The attenuator works well, the question is; if the attenuator that Oldace bought is getting hot, then is that because it doesn't have DC pass thru & should he change to one as supplied to Transit by UEC that has AC/DC Pass printed on it? See posts 25 & 29 for clarification.

[oldace]

I have been a bit worried about the heat of my little attenuator and some of the explanations given. (Thanks for the advice chaps).

I rang UEC and the lady seemed to know all about the problems and agreed to send my an attenuator.

It arrived at lunch time yesterday and I have been giving the receiver a good workout since.

The attenuator shows almost no increase in heat and I have not had a dud recording.

It think it might be best to sling my little attenuator and get a spare from Jaycar.

Cheers,

Oldace.

[Sunshine Coast]

As someone else in this thread correctly opined, it is disappointing that this fannying about is necessary at all.

I hope the equipment providers respond quickly to this and lift their game.

[grahcom]

Could using splitters be a solution? running direct into tuner 1 & 2 from a splitter?

I am looking to get a UEC DSR 4639 to run along side with my UEC 4121 that I used to run with my old Aurora box, off a single lnb using 2 way splitter. taht used to work fine.

So maybe 2 way splitter into the 4639 then use one of the outputs to the 4121.

Or 3 way splitter and direct line into both boxes.


Graham

[beer4life]

Could using splitters be a solution? running direct into tuner 1 & 2 from a splitter?

I am looking to get a UEC DSR 4639 to run along side with my UEC 4121 that I used to run with my old Aurora box, off a single lnb using 2 way splitter. taht used to work fine.

So maybe 2 way splitter into the 4639 then use one of the outputs to the 4121.

Or 3 way splitter and direct line into both boxes.


Graham

Depends which Satellite you are looking at ?
You cannot split a single Cable on one band to H & V.
You can do it if both decoders are H or V.
Ipso facto, you can use the Feed Through if available, instead of a splitter !

[Antennaman]

Or 3 way splitter and direct line into both boxes.

I've done that, so it should work for you. That's off an 80cm dish in Tassie.

[Antennaman]

Can it be DC voltage for the LNB that heats up?

Sure is. Nothing to do with the signal level, that's SFA for the purpose of what's happening here.

Simplest way is to get a multimeter & measure the resistance, from the centre pin of the attenuator that screws into the decoder where voltage feed is coming from, to attenuator body on the non AC/DC pass type attenuator.

Use that value to calculate the wattage based on VPOL of 13 volts, you'll probably get a couple of watts. (Hint: P = V²/R)

No wonder it gets hot. Surprising the little chip resistors that make up the attenuator don't let their smoke out.

The AC/DC pass type attenuators have small AC/DC blocking chip capacitors at the input & output of the chip resistor divider part of the attenuator, & a small RF choke (inductor) around 10µH, connecting the centre pins to allow voltage pass through. It's all very small, as it has to fit inside the barrel of the attenuator.

[grahcom]

I've done that, so it should work for you. That's off an 80cm dish in Tassie.

Ok so that works. But just to clarify, are you saying the use of a splitter negates the need for an attenuator on the UEC 4639 to overcome the problem of signal drop tuner 1 to tuner 2 that is being discussed in this thread?

At a wild guess I'd think use of a splitter would give same reading on tuner 1 & 2,
(similar to using dual LNB but with the advantage of only needing the one feed thru caravan wall)

BTW for past 15yrs or so I use Optus C1 on 75cm dish caravanning around all of OZ.

[Antennaman]

But just to clarify, are you saying the use of a splitter negates the need for an attenuator on the UEC 4639 to overcome the problem of signal drop tuner 1 to tuner 2 that is being discussed in this thread?

Unknown quantity for me. As long as my meter tells me the signals are good, I don't look at the internal signal information from the box.

I'm not even sure the term "signal drop" is correct. What I'm reading here is there may be an overload or high noise condition due to the splitter amplifier in the tuner, even if it has one.- I've no idea.

Only installed a few 4639's, & so far (well, my customers haven't raised anything with me) haven't come across any issues.

At a wild guess I'd think use of a splitter would give same reading on tuner 1 & 2,

So would I, will have to check it next time I do one.

BTW for past 15yrs or so I use Optus C1 on 75cm dish caravanning around all of OZ.

I been using a 65cm for VAST when travelling.

[beefrank]

Not seen anything for a while - does this mean that 4639 recording problems have been solved?

A few weeks ago I installed a UEC-supplied 12dB attenuator as per the supplied installation guide (between LNB-IN #1 and the signal cable), which did not solve my recording problems. My most frustrating problems usually occur when recording two programs simultaneously. Play back of one recording can freeze either at the beginning or up to about 30 minutes after the start although the I-plate shows that the programs recorded correctly. I've tried the attenuator in the loop between LNB-OUT #1 and LNB-IN #2 (as discussed above), but the recording problems continued. I've also tried connecting the signal cable to LNB-IN #2 (also discussed above) with loop through from LNB-OUT #2 to LNB-IN #1, but this was also a failure.

Most of the earlier reported problems (reported here and on the 4639 bug thread) still occur, eg greyed channels when recording only one program, random rebooting when accessing EPG, and play back problems following fast forward. With the attenuator between the signal input and LNB-IN #1, SQ for all channels is 75% - 100% and SL is 64% - 100%, for both tuners.

Has anybody found a way to get reliable recordings on the 4639? The only way I've found is to ensure that only one program is being recorded at a time, which is not what I paid for.

[Tiny]

As far as I know the attenuator needs to be on the loop thru from tuner 1 to tuner 2, not on the incoming signal cable from the LNB. And this is only appropriate for a single cable feed to the box when the loop thru is needed.

I'm using a 2 cable solution (no attenuator), currently from a multiswitch which supplies 2 boxes. It would be best done with a dual output LNB.

I'm having no trouble recording at all, whether simultaneous or not.

Edit: From Post 25 page 2 of this thread.

Today I received the attenuator [with instructions] from UEC. The only markings on it are: '12 dB AC/DC PASS'.

Before fitting it I got signal readings whilst using the IPSTAR 14 dB attenuator and these were 75/84 [Quality/Level] for tuner 1 and 75/62 for tuner 2.

After fitting the 12 dB attenuator I checked the signal readings and they were identical to the IPSTAR attenuator figures. Generally, if both tuners are on the same frequency the signal quality is identical on each tuner whilst the signal level is between 20 and 22% lower on tuner 2 when viewing C1. IF both tuners are on D3 then I get 100/100 for 1 and 100/100 for 2. If tuner 1 is on D3 and tuner 2 is on C1 I get 100/100 for 1 and 75/62 for 2. If tuner 1 is then switched to tuner 2's frequency then I get 75/82 for 1 and 75/62 for 2. Again showing a 20-22% signal level drop.

I would have liked the supplied attenuator to have worked better than the IPSTAR attenuator however I am still very happy with the result. Everything now works perfectly.

If anyone is having this problem I suggest contacting UEC and asking them for a free attenuator -- I don't think that it is unreasonable to see this as a design fault issue so they may have a responsibility to make the unit "fit for purpose" by supplying an attenuator at no cost.

Here is a pic of the attenuator. Although I have used a slightly different connecting cable you can use the loop-through cable supplied with the unit -- it is just long enough.


Uploaded with ImageShack.us

[transit]

Not seen anything for a while - does this mean that 4639 recording problems have been solved?

A few weeks ago I installed a UEC-supplied 12dB attenuator as per the supplied installation guide (between LNB-IN #1 and the signal cable), which did not solve my recording problems. My most frustrating problems usually occur when recording two programs simultaneously. Play back of one recording can freeze either at the beginning or up to about 30 minutes after the start although the I-plate shows that the programs recorded correctly. I've tried the attenuator in the loop between LNB-OUT #1 and LNB-IN #2 (as discussed above), but the recording problems continued. I've also tried connecting the signal cable to LNB-IN #2 (also discussed above) with loop through from LNB-OUT #2 to LNB-IN #1, but this was also a failure.

Most of the earlier reported problems (reported here and on the 4639 bug thread) still occur, eg greyed channels when recording only one program, random rebooting when accessing EPG, and play back problems following fast forward. With the attenuator between the signal input and LNB-IN #1, SQ for all channels is 75% - 100% and SL is 64% - 100%, for both tuners.

Has anybody found a way to get reliable recordings on the 4639? The only way I've found is to ensure that only one program is being recorded at a time, which is not what I paid for.

I also have almost no problems recording or otherwise with the 4639. Every couple of weeks I might have some minor fast forward problem which is fixed immediately with a reboot. My system is powered down completely every night due to solar power constraints so is therefore freshly booted at least daily if not more. Could this be why I don't have problems and you do? How often is your system completely powered down and not left in standby? All this greyed out channel stuff and fast forward problems are fixed with a reboot.

AEC says the attenuator is for installation between the LNB 1 out and LNB 2 in as per the photo in the above post.

[beefrank]

Thanks Tiny and Transit.

The system is not powered down over night, which is usually when I do most of my recording. However, if I remember I'll try switching off and on prior to the next simultaneous recording to see if it provides a possible solution.

The installation guide (including photo) supplied by UEC with the attenuator says that it should be installed between the signal cable and LNB-IN #1. Nevertheless, I did try installing it between LNB-OUT #1 and LNB-IN #2 as in Tiny's photo above, to no avail. On the 4639 bug thread, Transit/Chum suggested another problem I had might be due to a known issue with the EPG (specifically the SA bouquet), which if it hasn't been resolved could be a cause of my simultaneous recording problem. Also apparently some 4639 recording issues have been associated with high gain (ie large) dishes. My dish is around 90cm X 100cm, which has a gain only about 3dB more than the more common 60cm-ish dishes, so can't believe that could be the reason for my problems.

I'm awaiting a response from UEC to work out where I go from here.

[Tiny]

I leave my 4639 powered up & in standby all the time unless I have it on for viewing.
It is on a 1.2m dish shared by my Foxtel/MystarHD decoder thru a Spaun Multiswitch.

My current signal readings are;
C1 = SS 100 SQ 75

D3 = SS 100 SQ 87
The same no matter which tuner.


The other day when I needed to retune the dish due to horse moving it out of line I found I could get D3 SS100 SQ100 at the sacrifice of C1 SS100 SQ62.
So I opted for better signal quality on C1 of 75, as currently that is where the bulk of VAST channels is at the moment.
My Foxtel reception has not suffered.

[gordon_s1942]

A liitle bit off track, but how do these receivers get the information to do a recording?
Is there a signal transmitted from the broadcaster to say 'Program XXX start', that is then detected by the receiver and checks its settings and finds you have selected to record the program via the EPG and begins recording until a following signal says 'Program XXX END' and stops or is it by time only?
I have only ever tried once to record using a USB stick in a Terrestrial STB about 2 years ago and I cant remember now how I set it up.
What I was wondering is if its from a 'signal' sent by the broadcaster, how reliable it is because remember how erratic Teletext was at times if there was any sort of fluctuation in the signal.
I havent bothered recording off VAST but I do record of the Pay but I use a stand alone HDD/DVD recorder connected to it via the AV leads and I would do the same with the VAST too if I needed to.
It just means to do a Time Record I have to do the settings manually and remember to start a few minutes early and end 15 minutes after the advertised times, just in case.

[Tiny]

Embedded in the EPG information is start, finish times & channel for all programs & in the case of Chain/Series Linked recordings there is a code embedded that links the series together.
The decoder uses this information to set recording & stop times combined with your preset start & finish extension times of say 5 minutes.

Of course some times this embedded EPG info is incorrect due to data input error at the providers end.

You can avoid the providers EPG data error by setting recordings manually, Channel, Date, Time Start & Finish, how many times to repeat the recording, Daily or Weekly.
Then you are responsible for Data errors.

[gordon_s1942]

This is the feature the Broadcasters have fought against providing on Terrestrial TV but here it is alive and well (when it works) on VAST.
They did manage however to not allow 'Ad Blocking' to be introduced.

[beefrank]

Following transit's post on powering down I did a manual reboot on my 4639 prior to setting up several sequential and simultaneous recordings (about 12 in all). Based on past experience one or more recordings would be expected to fail ..... and this time not a single failed recording!! Early days, but looks good. So the combination of 12dB attenuator and reboot (presumably clears the 4639's memory) seems to have solved all my recording problems.

Referring to gordon_s1942 and Tiny's posts I have set as default a start offest of 10 mins and stop offset of 20 mins, which catches almost all EPG errors. Occasionally the 4639 seems to get confused if start and stop offsets on different channels overlap. However, the attenuator and reboot fix might even solve this problem.

[beefrank]

Some wishful thinking in my last post of nearly three months ago! Although the 4639 seems to be more stable, it still has a problem recording consecutive programs on one channel while another program is being recorded on a second channel. More often than not, the second program in the sequence fails to play back although all indications are that it recorded correctly.

Every now and then the unit still reboots when selecting or looking through the EPG. Some fast forward problems also still exist, such as loss of sound when play is selected, and sped up audio playback until sound has caught up with video.

Does anybody know when the promised firmware update can be expected? UEC did not respond to my last email in which I asked this question.