Low Level Laser Therapy - Photonic?

[Tiny]

There is a lot of people getting around claiming that low level laser therapy or photonic therapy also known as red light therapy, is a form of medical treatment akin to acupuncture.

Now some of these lights are in fact low level lasers, however some are only red LED's (Basically a red torch.)

I can't see how a red led can influence anything apart from the placebo effect. The red laser maybe, I don't know.

I've looked around & there is obvious conjecture as to the efficacy of this treatment.
The positive comments of course being from users on the web page or Facebook page of the inventors & sellers of the device.

Does anyone know of any reasons why this would work or not?
What do you think about it & do you have any experience either positive or negative regarding these products or therapies?

Here are some links to the products I'm talking about.




also

[hogwort]

Hi Tiny, I've had the Low Level Laser Therapy treatment & found it at the time effective for my chronic neck & back pain. The treatment lasted 3 months (intensive) & now after 18 months has had little lasting affect. It is very expensive & a huge commitment is need as I was required not to do any exercise not even with the Missis. PM me if you need further info.
Cheers.

[gordon_s1942]

I guess it would depend on the frequency used in the therapy.
We all know by getting a tan or Sun burn how Infra Red rays can penetrate the skin and the Microwaves used in ovens how they can 'heat' material.
I have seen demo's on TV where a laser beam was used in surgical procedures and to 'remove' tattoo's but I always thought it was more cutting, cauterizing than as a therapy tool.
I had a dental procedure done on a filling where a laser was used to 'set' a filling, but it was never explained to me in detail of exactly what and how it worked.
I do remember I had to hold a red sheet of plastic over my face/eyes area and the dental assistant wore Red goggles.
Also there was something put in my mouth behind the filling which I took to be a means to block the laser beam penetrating further than it needed to.

[trash]

Yep, it's a placebo all right !

But after wort's post I think I'l change my mind and go into business. I've got a few old red laser keychains lying around.
I had no idea I was sitting on top of a potential gold mine !!

If a shitty old red semiconductor laser can cure magical things like back pain, I reckon some of my other lasers might offer some "specialised" cures.

I think my HeNe lasers can cure the common cold.
My HeCd can cure rickets.
I've got a 5 watt Argon Ion laser that I think should be able to cure genital warts. I've just got to get my aiming right.
And the 500 watt Q switched ruby laser I reckon should be able to cure cancer !
Well, either that or it'll be about to perform millisecond hair cuts with some special beam splitters

[gordon_s1942]

Dont go the Hair Restorer path as I believe that was tried and their still in jail over that one.

Also I wouldnt use the word 'CURE, try 'Alleviate' instead because then you can safely give your self an 'Out' when the results arent favourable.


'Trials have shown that Lasar treatment can alleviate many of todays stressful conditions on suitable Patients'.

[trash]

'Trials have shown that Lasar treatment can alleviate many of todays stressful conditions on suitable Patients'.

Is a lasar different from a laser ?

hahah... I'll add that one to my list,
Alleviate: The practise of anaesthetising your customer so you can painlessly remove coins from his pocket !

[jok11n]

Coins?

[lsemmens]

Suitable patients, AKA: Gullible!

[Tiny]

Thanks for supporting my skeptical view on the subject.

It amazes me that people are willing to pay $395 for a red led torch & $560 for a special red torch ("Advanced Photonic Therapy involves safe, low frequency red light (not laser) which supports the healing of conditions in horses"). I'd be selling these ones trash.

Now I have horses & so understand how sensitive they are to emotions.
Like people; happy horses are usually healthy & depressed horses get sick.

Now these people that sell these torches & people who own horses are convinced that pointing a red torch with a wave length of 660 nanometers & pressing it on particular nerve points & junctions will effect healing of the animal.

What I think is actually happening is the horse who has a health problem of some sort, is a little depressed & their immune system is a little off balance.
The human comes along & shows caring affection & by doing so with the belief in the magic red torch, stimulates the horses emotions, probably gives the horse a special feed to also help the horse feel good. All this extra attention stimulates the horses emotional state, producing endorphins. The flow on effect of feeling good stimulates the immune system & the horse gets better.

Also in my observations people, horses, dogs, birds & other pets that are generally healthy mentally, physically & emotionally, very rarely get sick & when they do have a minor illness or injury they recover quickly, despite the treatment given.
So the person using the red torch thinks it did the healing.
They proclaim it a miracle, then everyone they know rushes out & buys an expensive red torch.

Think I might invest in some red LED's.

[gordon_s1942]

Tiny, I will certainly go along with your comments on a little 'TLC' goes a long way.
I have long been convinced that while many lotions do contain useful healing medications, the simple application by hand plays an important part in their ability to heal.
I have been 'drowning' my Wife in Calamine lotion to reduce her discomfort from what we think is a heat rash on both arms and across the neck caused by the recent extreme hot weather.
No doubt she could apply it herself but its being able to relax and have someone else apply it all contributes to lotions effectiveness.
People and animals respond to calm, relaxed, safe and comfortable surroundings when their not feeling the best and add a person who can then by their presence, talking or massaging all the stress and pressures away, make you fly through the day.

Potions, Lotions and motions in that order, something to drink even water, the smell and feel of the lotion and then the motion of application.

But who can explain how the application of Cabbage leaves on a pregnant women's breasts can relieve discomfort some encounter?
She had, she wanted, she got and I supplied as required.

The only 'Red' light I know of is those Infra Red lights and as far as I know you should only use them for 10 minutes a day carefully.

[trash]

Yep, I think you pretty much nailed it Tiny.

Wow, $560.... I got to get in on that scam !
I reckon my new Blue light will offer extra and higher energy photons, thus healing quicker than those older model Red units !
Generally, when I hear the word Acupuncture, yellow warning lights start flashing on my Bullshit alarm. It should a higher level alarm and I feel like I'm getting sucked into reports of success for what amounts to a placebo effect.
I think it's the good reputation of the people that make the claims that causes the problem. But I will continue to be skeptical because, Smart people are not immune from making stupid mistakes.


Tonight on the TV I see a report about transcranial magnetic stimulation. My bullshit alarm went off with a code blue. (requires serious investigation).
Now at one end of the scale are magnet therapy fvckheads. Scammers that are high on my hitlist.
At the other end are some seriously cool PhD students screwing with people's head and making remote control people wit strong magnetic fields.

So I see this woman claim she cures here migraines by putting this small unit on her head and then it makes a thud/click sound like a tiny single shot MRI unit.
Fark ! That woman just EMP pinched her brain !!!!
Arrrggh !!!
hangon.... As disturbing as this appears, it is an interesting short term fix. Though the down side is you could knock out some other part of your brain and give yourself a seizure.
I'm fascinated by it, but I'm not sure yet that I'd want to nuke my head. Though with a good migraine, I think you might be prepared to try anything for relief.

[gordon_s1942]

Like those damned ads for magnetic pillows and underlays, the only thing I have ever felt from a magnetic pillow was when one of the magnets left a deep impression on my cheek from lying on it.
I have managed over the years to conveniently forget to order or buy or to distract when I see/hear when SWMBO makes any comments about replacing the ones she managed to buy.

[Thomas Ennis]

I work in an operating room, and we use lasers to break up kidney stones. Lasers are also being used as a form of weaponry, so there is little doubt in my mind that the technology is maturing and expanding. What I can't say for sure, is exactly what these types of lasers do. It's possible they are just another trend, like oxygen bars.

The only thing I can think of; off the top of my head, is heat therapy. Heat is effective at treating muscle aches. Perhaps the lasers break up the muscle fibers associated with long term pain. This explanation is stretching the imagination a tad, and even if it is true; a massage would be cheaper.

[Tiny]

I work in an operating room, and we use lasers to break up kidney stones. Lasers are also being used as a form of weaponry, so there is little doubt in my mind that the technology is maturing and expanding. What I can't say for sure, is exactly what these types of lasers do. It's possible they are just another trend, like oxygen bars.

The only thing I can think of; off the top of my head, is heat therapy. Heat is effective at treating muscle aches. Perhaps the lasers break up the muscle fibers associated with long term pain. This explanation is stretching the imagination a tad, and even if it is true; a massage would be cheaper.

Even for medical use, a laser would need to be licensed to prevent any idiot from damaging people.

The flipside of that is the red LED torches being sold at unrealistic prices that any one can master.

[trash]

Which reminds me. I've got an Argon Ion laser head for sale if somebody wants to try cure herpes etc.
I've got one which is just a head and the other has a big heavy solid state PSU.

[Thomas Ennis]

Even for medical use, a laser would need to be licensed to prevent any idiot from damaging people.

The flipside of that is the red LED torches being sold at unrealistic prices that any one can master.

You are completely right. Doctors that use the laser have to attend a training class. Likewise, there are always sales reps in the room who can instruct the docs.