Hot Water Service - Mixing / Tempering valves

[ol' boy]

Now these might just relate to Electric Hot waters, i am not sure about gas.



My house is before the rule came in, so i dont have one (thank god)
But the GF's house has one and is also a Solar aided HWS with an electric element half way up the 400litre tank.

The element works fine
Thermostat is set to 70 degrees
The water that comes out the PTR valve is hot
But the water that comes out the taps inside would be lucky to be 50 degrees!!!

I popped the top off the mixing valve and turn it to "HOT" which it was set at anyway. So no difference there.

Does anyone else suffer this type of problem?
Is there a way of just removing the valve all together?

[fandtm666]

they are called thermostatic mixing valves.

they were bought in years ago to be used in areas where there was
public access to the hot water and also in commercial situations such
as hairdresser's - hospitals etc.

they then decided it was a good idea to have them installed in houses so people
would use less hot water and electricity by reducing the temps to 51 degrees for
showers and 42 degrees for hand basins.

you can remove it then cap the cold inlet connection and install and straight connector
from the hot inlet to the mixed outlet.But dont get caught there are fines for not having
them inplace on newer homes.

[mandc]

The one on my place doesn't have the cap...just a knob so you can adjust it to whatever temp you like. Knowing the nanny state that seems to exist everywhere, they probably have now banned those type.

[ol' boy]

Thanks guys, yeah ours has a blue plastic cap like the picture shows, pop that off and there is a triangle type valve stem (an attempt at anti tamper)

Looks like its time to flair some copper.
Unless I can just smashed the cold inlet pipe closed with 2 hammers?

[Antennaman]

Unless I can just smashed the cold inlet pipe closed with 2 hammers?

Logic suggests that will result in no hot water passing through.

[ol' boy]

I did mean at the valve, but as 666 mentioned, its a thermo valve, so with just hot water only, it would no doubt remain shut.

[LeroyPatrol]

What if replacing a HW in an older house. Does it need to comply with the new regs?

.....Leroy

[ol' boy]

Like for Like generally Leroy...
But as Plumbers get used to doing a certain thing, they might just do it out of habit.

[SS Dave]

What if replacing a HW in an older house. Does it need to comply with the new regs?

.....Leroy

Don't know

But the house I am renting has a gas instant hot water that is electronically tempered to 50c and it pisses me off big time.

Not hot enough in the kitchen and the temperature fluctuates in the bathroom .

SS Dave

[ol' boy]

Agreed Dave, its just obnoxiously annoying.
Its no wonder you hardly mix any cold with it at the tap.
I actually thought it was to stop people burning themselves... but fook me... if more than 2 people use the hotwater, then its cold!

[gordon_s1942]

In NSW the Public Housing built a row of 'Townhouses' 5 years ago and each has these temperature controlled devises on the HWS and all the tenants have complained that in Winter, the shower just does not get hot.
They have tested the system and as they comply with the regulations they refuse to do anything.

I have been told if a Plumber gets caught altering these devises, they can loose their License, face a substantial fine and of course could be liable for any injury caused from scalding etc.

I have one of those 'Red Rock' brand 'tankless HWS' for the shower only and there are days I have to reduce the cold water input to it to reach about the 40C mark warm enough to shower under it.

[Antennaman]

What if replacing a HW in an older house. Does it need to comply with the new regs?

When my HWS was replaced 4 years ago, I asked the plumber this.

He said if any work is done to the bathroom area, then a tempering valve has to be fitted. He also said normal hot water from the cylinder can still be supplied to the kitchen & laundry - not sure if this still applies.

FWIW, I was also told minimum hot water temp has to be 60˚ in a storage system to guard against legionella bacteria - in my case the cylinder can be set from 60˚C - 80˚C. I have it on 60˚C, for energy saving.

I actually thought it was to stop people burning themselves... but fook me... if more than 2 people use the hotwater, then its cold!

It is to stop the risk of scalding.

(Here's a detailing such an event.)

Also worth noting is women can tolerate higher shower temperatures than most men.

[gulliver]

What if replacing a HW in an older house. Does it need to comply with the new regs?

.....Leroy

Yes, The rule came in last year(unless you install it yourself)so a friend of a friend told me.
A Plumber in Sydney got caught not installing them in housing commision homes/probably charged for it anyway and has to install them all for free.

[gulliver]

If it is possible to do in an existing place,you can install a direct pipe to the kitchen and tempervalve controlled to the rest.
It is a joke we have to install them on instantaneous HWS as the max temp.achieved is 40 degrees above cold water temp.
There is your answer Gordon.

[ol' boy]

I have been told if a Plumber gets caught altering these devises, they can loose their License, face a substantial fine and of course could be liable for any injury caused from scalding etc.

Well i am replacing it with an elbow... And they are welcome to take my Plumbing Licence off me
When you pay $500,000 to get a home built and your middle age, i think you can have the water and what ever temp you so wish.
Unless they ban kettles, whats the point.

You cant even run a small spa bath in the this place, as the water runs cool before it is half full, then the minute you get in, you need to add more hot water... of which there is zero.

[fandtm666]

grab one of these and it will connect the hot in to the mixed out utilising the kinko nuts already being used



then one of these to cap the cold

[ol' boy]

Slightly different fittings I think.







Hot water this morning... strange unit this thing.... I'm starting to wonder if the Solar isnr pumping hot water up on the roof and cooling it down!

[gordon_s1942]

If it is possible to do in an existing place,you can install a direct pipe to the kitchen and tempervalve controlled to the rest.
It is a joke we have to install them on instantaneous HWS as the max temp.achieved is 40 degrees above cold water temp.
There is your answer Gordon.

Gulliver, this unit does not have that same 'Thermal Mixing Control' as the 'Branded' units do and I have actually had it reading over 65C in the Summer when the ambient temperature is higher.
It does however have a 'overheating' cutout to prevent it being damaged if it has insufficient water flow into the heat exchanger.
From the HWS to the shower head is barely 5 feet so it isnt heat loss caused by a long or uninsulated pipes but that the incoming water temperature here in Winter is very low.

I have been using this unit now for nearly 3 years and as the seasons change, I have to vary the gas and water flow to keep a suitable safe comfortable water temperature.
For over 20 years I had a small coal fired 'Donkey' HWS and it too varied its ability to heat water between the Summer and Winter by as much as 50%.

[gulliver]

I was talking about electric Inst.HWS but the same applies to gas,Depends where you live,in summer the cold water is 20 degrees,plus 40 =60.In winter 10 + 40 = 50 or less.And that is the maximum.

[Mysterex]

The wife of a man who died from Legionnaire's Disease at the weekend has warned of the dangers of setting hot water service temperatures too low.

Stock agent John Mayell died in Flinders Medical Centre on Sunday after contracting Legionnaire's Disease from a hot water service at the Beachport home he shared with his wife of almost 60 years, Jan.

Mrs Mayell said her husband had suffered ill health for the past two years, including recent pneumonia, which she believed made him susceptible to Legionnaire's.

"They did tests in our house and unfortunately that's where it was found, in the shower head of our en suite and the sink in the kitchen," Mrs Mayell told The Advertiser.

Mrs Mayell, 78, said a new hot water service installed in the past year had a valve inside which reduced the temperature and created an environment where Legionella could develop.

"lt stopped the water from overheating and the water was tested at only 40 degrees celsius, when it should have been at least 50 to kill any possible bug like Legionella," she said.

"I wonder about other people, a lot of hot water services are turned hack these days through social workers in case older people scald themselves and it's a very dangerous process as we can see now."

Mrs Mayell said her 83-year old husband was well known throughout the southeast through his career as a stock agent.

"He was a stock agent for most of his life, he began when he was 16. He only retired about 10 years ago when we retired to Beachport where we' d spent our holidays for most of our almost 60 years of marriage," she said.

"He was well respected as a judge of good stock and cattle. he was very dedicated to his job but he found time for his family as well."

SA Health acting director of public health, Dr Chris Lease. said people should be aware of the risks associated with reducing the temperatures in hot water services — which carry a
national requirement to be set at 60 degrees or higher.

"However keeping water at this temperature can increase the risk of scalding injuries, particularly for children and older people," Dr Lease said.

Dr Lease said anyone unsure of temperature setting should contact their manufacturer or plumber, and said showers or wash basins not used regularly should be flushed with hot water to eliminate any bacteria.

Council on the Ageing chief executive lan Yates said warnings should be finetuned to alert the elderly to the dangers of reducing water temperature.

Mr Mayell's death will be investigated by the Coroner and SA Health declined to comment further yesterday.