Reply With Quotebest4less (06-10-14),Softek2 (02-10-14),tristen (02-10-14),Uncle Fester (01-10-14)
the insulation debacle is only that because common sense and logic failed
anyone with a little experience would know that if you put a staple through a 240 volt wire, you would get a shock
sadly enough the insulation rebate scheme brought about all the 'fly by night companies' that wanted to make a quick buck out of it
obviously the greedy companies wanted to make top dollar by doing as many houses as possible (before the rebate scheme finished) and employed young guys straight out of school
good thing is these young guys are fit enough to climb through roof spaces/trusses but they lack any expertise and/or skills
proper training was obviously not provided
like oceanboy, I have seen plenty of downlights just covered over with insulation making for a nice hot environment
the foil type insulation should never have been approved anyway in my eyes as it is a poor insulator and just a quick fix but worse than that, it just covers up everything so you don't know what lies below
rules and regulations (especially workplace health and safety) are always made by people higher up (that quite possibly have never done any hands on work and know buggerall about the practicality of procedures)
with nowadays rules and regulations people are not encouraged to think for themselves anymore and this especially is the case in the commercial building sector
I know of a young guy that died from a safety harness, a device that was supposed to save his life but that actually crushed him to death after hopping in a lift to go down but not noticing the lanyard trawling behind him and getting caught in the lift doors
sorry for the sort of 'off topic' post bodeplot
best4less (06-10-14),Softek2 (02-10-14),tristen (02-10-14),Uncle Fester (01-10-14)
Back when I did my Telecommunications training (last century in Souf OZ) we were trained to do electrical work and told that we were only allowed to perform electrical work in Telecom Premises. We also had an electrical section who normally did all electrical work and they were trained sparkies. Go figure. We were also instructed to run our cables according to strict rules as to spacing and isolation. My job for a couple of years was to acceptance test commercial telecommunications cabling in new buildings. What the rules were then is way different to the rules now. I considered applying for an Austel permit and gave up because none of my training, and qualifications were considered. (That was in Darwin last century) What I see done, now, makes me cringe. As a kid I "helped" (I was only 4) a sparky wiring houses in the new development near our home (inner city) and every cable was tacked down neatly out of the way along the sides of rafters and none just thrown across ceiling space. Some of the jobs I have seen since are downright scary. Lacing cables, tacking, what's that?
Uncle Fester (01-10-14)
@bodeplot, sorry if I got a bit carried way (actually it is downunder35m's fault) but if it where my first thread in a new forum that received so much diverse response I would be actually quite proud.
It has always been a hot topic for me what and what you are not allowed to do in this country and I see on one side the unions trying to restrict everything to specialists in order to earn the biggest buck and on the other side the nanny bureaucrats (I like to call them desktop tigers) who often have the least amount of practical knowledge and experience but overwhelm us with ridiculous regulations, just making it ever increasingly hard for the small business to survive.
Weirdo says it, common sense is suffocated with regulations, but in the end we are treated like idiots.
We are not even allowed to loosen and lift a light switch a few centimetres off the wall for a bit of renovating paint work without calling a sparky.
…but forget now the "sparky" work. As I said before, with everything it is all about liability.
Who is going to pay if you fix somebodies PC and suddenly the mains filter MKS capacitor flares up and the fan blows small but intensive flames out towards the waste paper basket full of paper next to the curtains?
…or you fix somebodies laptop but the battery catches fire while it is charging unobserved.
You were the last one who took it apart, so good luck proving it was not your fault when their house burnt down.
You probably need some sort of qualification paper for anything you do to get liability insurance and it will cost ya !
Licensed basically means that you have insurance when you stuff up or even not.
Update: A deletion of features that work well and ain't broke but are deemed outdated in order to add things that are up to date and broken.
Compatibility: A word soon to be deleted from our dictionaries as it is outdated.
Humans: Entities that are not only outdated but broken... AI-self-learning-update-error...terminate...terminate...
mtv: Thanks for the tip. I will explore that avenue.
Downunder5m: I had the opportunity to get licensed in my early career. This was a lack of insight.
oceanboy: Equipment I repair: Anything that is worth repairing. I suggest to customers: over $500 (domestic) and $1000 (commercial) replacement value. This is equipment that has fallen outside the warranty period, or the customer has lost relationship with the OEM/service provider/authorised repair agent. This consists mostly of large laser printers, UPS's, Control Systems now days. All this equipment powered via GPO, although the plugs are sometimes in the IP rated forms for custom/external equipment. I will not repair three-phase equipment regardless. The incident last week was regarding a GPO powered multifunction office printer. Thanks for the tip about contacting to the governing body.
Nomeat: I'll ask my boss about this liability insurance. I am sure he has something like that in place. I work for a small business. I just do the work. My boss is a tech too, but he does the bizo. I have limited knowledge of the legal side of the business. Thanks for the tip about asking the insurers.
Everybody else, thanks.
ol' boy (02-10-14)
What he said was : You can repair appliances but you can't tamper with house wiring. LolOriginally Posted by oceanboy
My understanding is that anyone can do domestic home installations and wiring (but not to the board) providing the rules are followed and it is checked by an appropriately licenced electrician before switch on. Only the electrician can wire to the board. True or false ?
Rules were made for people that have "understandings" like you
Last edited by ol' boy; 05-10-14 at 06:04 PM.
You can do whatever you like, not just electrical wiring but also gas and water pipes, just do it the right way.
Only problem is that no sane licensed installer will sign up on it.
Checking it properly will most likely cost the same as having it installed.
I know some guys don't really care and think it is all to standard, but even if it is but not "signed off", it mean trouble with the insurance if something happens.
Let's say you put some electricity in your garden shed but decide to do it yourself.
Some time later you get a housefire due to an electrical fault.
The insurance finds the evidence of unlicensed additions to your wiring and decides not to pay a cent - even if the fault was not related to your wiring at all.
A sparky signing for an installation signs for quality work that can be traced back to him and if in doubt the house owner has to provide evidence on who performed the installations.
Tomtom GO730 ,Navcore 9.004 ,Bootloader 5.5256 ,Map :Australia 845.2661ttmaps and Tomplayer on 16GB SDHC class6Password for all my files: downunder
Yes can can do what ever you like mate, you can wire up your house but what are you going to do with the circuits you just installed?
You can NOT connect it to a mains supply or run a gas line to a HWS or stove but you still can NOT connect it to the gas mains.
For some factual answers, read the AS3000 or visit ESV website.
Guessing what you can and can't do is wonderful, sadly its not correct
The rules are non ambiguous in regards to fixed electrical wiring in an installation.
Same goes for plumbing and installing a Air Con for that matter.
As a Sparky, i am allowed to unscrew and remove a roof sheet, but i am not allowed to put it back on.
What the rules ARE and what people do are often two different things.... doesn't mean you are allowed to do it.
There is a reason why an Electrical Apprentice must have a LEM on-site while he is conducting Electrical Wiring work.
So do you still think anyone can do it? Bahahahaha, yeah right.... just ring up an Electrical Inspector and ask him?
I'm fairly sure i can do open heart surgery too, so long as i get a Doctor to stitch it back up
In Vic, you can't even wire a totally solar power house unless you are LEM and have it signed off by an REC.
What is unfortunate, is the growth in some dodgy "Western Suburb" Electrical Contracting business's that use new immigrants to wire big jobs.
I had to quote against one such scumbag, he had a team of Indian guys that wired the bulk of jobs for next to nothing an hour, then he came and fitted off the switchboard and Meterbox etc.
I have also learnt first hand what happens when it goes wrong.
15 years ago i helped a mate by offering to sign his work, he was a "B" Grade Electrician, nice bloke and needed the work.
Problem was, the competing Electrical Contractor that wanted the same job worked out he was not a Sparky and called the Chief Electrical Inspector in Melb.....
They came down, took photos of the job whilst it was still under way, took pics of anything that did not comply... then guess where they went... After me.
I got bailed up with 2 liaison officers for the Chief Electrical Inspectors Office.... it was no joke, no one was laughing, they played "Good Cop, Bad Cop", writing down everything i said..... I will never ever offer to sign off anyones work again...
And the worst part, after me, the went to see the "B" Grade fella.... and instead of roasting him, they said, we don't want to see anyone doing licensed work without a licence, sent us $800 and we will give you an "A" Grade licence... WTF!
Last edited by ol' boy; 06-10-14 at 10:16 AM.
And how would they know the rules???
Every time i have handed the end of a cable to an "anyone", i have been amazed how many different ways there are to do it wrong!
Let alone them even knowing minimum distances, restricted areas, or even common sense for that matter.
In saying that, yes it does happen, there are builders that might pull a cable in for you before they close a wall off, or at least a draw cable.
Doesn't that prove that it is all about paper and bureaucracy and to a lesser degree about safety or common sense ?
Update: A deletion of features that work well and ain't broke but are deemed outdated in order to add things that are up to date and broken.
Compatibility: A word soon to be deleted from our dictionaries as it is outdated.
Humans: Entities that are not only outdated but broken... AI-self-learning-update-error...terminate...terminate...
Either that or they were on the take.... Cash always speaks louder than words!
But that was 15 or 18 years ago, i can assure you, its not like that now!
The last time i had a fault on a job (caused by the Electricity Distributor, AGL), everyone was on-site! Work Cover, an Electrical Inspector, AGL truck crew, and Ambulance even.
The paper work was insane, just because the AGL had farked up their connection at the pole. Good luck to you if you were an unlicensed person pulling in wires that day.
All REC's get a newsletter every month from the CEIO, on the back page it has all the a list of accidents and deaths from electrical work and also a list of prosecutions made against people doing electrical work outside the rules.
The sad thing is, the fines are a joke. You'd make it up on your next job.
And its not like they can take a licence of someone that doesn't have one!
As for the OP, next time someone asks, if he just says "Yes", that would probably be the end of it.
But if they asked to see some form of ID or Licence, i have no idea what he is meant to provide???
I wonder what Public Liability he has?
And how he filled that Insurance Application form out?
Last edited by ol' boy; 06-10-14 at 11:18 AM.
No idea if it still applies but quite a few years ago in QLD a service tech could apply for a limited electrical licence which covered them for working in the situation originally bought up.
There's always an S permit too
Just to get back on topic:I have been working as an Electronics Technician since 1998 with a Diploma in Electronic Engineering.
Cheers
bodeplot, you can continue fixing the equipment and ask that sparky to leave your office or you call police.
He was just a smart ass union-brainwashed greedy prick.
If you really want to cover all the bases the only thing you need doing is finish short training course for in-service testing of electrical equipment and buy a little tester to test the 240V power plug and cord.
I did one of those Test and tag Courses this year and when I got the certificate, but silly me didn't check to see if it was a " Accredited " course
Well i got a nice steak lunch i guess and a piece of paper i could have printed myself LOL
When you do things right, people won't be sure that you have done anything at all
awesome
next time you're up my way you can tag my leads for me
Looks like its been used to tow broken VW Transporters to the Mechanics
Is THAT where my good lead has gone, I need it back so I can power my holiday home next month.........
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