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Thread: Electronics Tech evidence to repair 240V

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    Default Electronics Tech evidence to repair 240V

    I have been working as an Electronics Technician since 1998 with a Diploma in Electronic Engineering. During my career as a Tech, I have had a successful career repairing equipment powered by 240V. Apart from the odd customer asking "Are you sure you know what you're doing ?", I never got challenged. I even worked for an Electrician at one stage. In the past few years, I've slowly began to be questioned by Electricians asking me if I am licensed to repair power point supplied equipment. During my study as TAFE, I was taught that the electricity supply system and equipment hard wired into this system (ie: an appliance hard wired into a building) can only be repaired by a licensed electrician. All other equipment could be repaired by the general public (albeit Electronics Technician). I got challenged last week by an Electrician asking me for evidence. He created such a scene at a site last week, my customer cancelled the job. I am getting very frustrated by this. I am now trying to find any sort of legislation that supports what I learned at TAFE regarding what I am allowed to repair.

    Has anybody here had a similar experience ?, if so, did you do any research into this problem ?. I would like to know.

    Nb/ I live/work in SA.

    Cheers



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    I would recommend you contact the regulatory body for the electrical industry in your state to clarify what you can and can't do with mains voltage equipment.

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    Probably not relevant to your state but just to give you an indication.

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    Tell the smart arsed sparky to fix it himself.

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    As I know it you can repair any type of electronic equipment be it 12 volts or 240 volts but you CAN NOT repair or play with mains voltage that the equipment plugs into like a 240v power outlets or light switch and stuff like that if you not a licensed electrician.

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    I wonder if the electrician is from Queensland? I think the electrical trade unions somehow had laws passed that require electronics technicians to have some sort of certificate to say they are permitted to take the covers off equipment that plugs in to 240v.

    Unless SA has similar laws, it sounds like the comments made by the electrician re the OP's competence to perform the work were defamatory and caused him loss of income. A well worded solicitor's letter might put him back in his box and ensure that he thinks twice before carrying on like that again.

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    Back in Europe I am licensed to perform all electrical works and repairs on systems from battery powered to 1000V.
    For obvious reasons I was very keen on getting this tranfered to AU standard lincenses.
    The problem is that this basically impossible!
    The AU system does not allow for it and I was asked to pay over a grand upfront (with no returns possible) to ONE AU license for it.
    Since the AU standards are in many cases far below the EU ones I was told I could get a standard sparky license after 3 months of training to learn the corresponding standards and how to work.
    For everything else I would have to take the full courses or start as an aprentice again.
    To get me covered here for all works I am allowed to perform in EU I would have to pay around 8500$, take around 8 courses and start three or four times as an aprentice.
    So maybe by the time I reach the pension age I would be able to actually start working in my old field again.
    After seeing some works on worksites and when my house had to get a new meter box I decided it is not worth the trouble.
    I agree that getting foreign skilled workers to AU standards is necessary and required but the license system in general here is outdated and overcomplicated.

    Just some examples of work I performed over the years:
    House installions, industrial installations and repairs, installation and removal of distribution lines, repair and soldering of SMD electronics (manual and with placement machines), high voltage works, traffic light systems and traffic management systems (the electrical and electronics, not the programming), building automated productions lines.....
    So basically everything that requires electrical power one way or the other.
    But I also noticed that some sparkies here don't know what they are doing when it comes to what is allowed and what not.
    On a worksite here I saw a (licensed) sparky going nuts and causing a massive scene because of an idian guy putting cables into a house under construction.
    The future owner had an agreement with the builder that he can do a lot of things himself to save on money, including to mark the placement of all switches and power outlets.
    So all the guy has done was putting the cable between the framework and to make nice drawings on the locations.
    The sparky had a massive rant, called a few numbers and had the whole worksite shut down.
    In his view the owner was not allowed to do any electrical works - which he did not as there was no power anyway and he only "installed" the cables, the actual connections were planned to be done by a licensed sparky anyway.
    Once an inspector from worksafe arrive his only comment was that he can't see any problems or violations and that the site is open again....
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    Quote Originally Posted by bodeplot View Post
    I am getting very frustrated by this. I am now trying to find any sort of legislation that supports what I learned at TAFE regarding what I am allowed to repair.

    Has anybody here had a similar experience ?, if so, did you do any research into this problem ?. I would like to know.

    Nb/ I live/work in SA.

    Cheers
    As an Electrician for the passed 27 years, what you explained in relation to whom can work on what, is exactly how it was explained to me and how it USED to be.
    IE: AS3000 covered the wiring rules and regs for fixed wiring and appliances.

    Anything that was plugged in to a GPO, was deemed outside the rules and scope of AS3000 and any Licensing Rules.
    An example and why the rules were changed, is a Caravan Park.
    Where Caravans which a portable and plugged into a Powerhead, i lost count the amount of reverse polarity plugs i found, hence why Caravan Switching (both lights and GPO's had to be Double Pole)

    The rules get grey in the area of say an exhaust fan in a house, it is plugged in, but its not a GPO, its a socket mounted generally in a restricted area.

    But for most of my electrician career, it was accepted that if it plugs in, then its outside any licensing.

    At some point, there a was a new Australian Standards book produced, that covered Caravan and Temporary/Permanent structures, like fixed awnings (AS3001).

    So, you would really have to explain to us the exact work you preform, that has these Electricians questioning you if you'd like a correct and informed answer.

    All i can tell you is this, in 27 years, it has only got harder and more controlled, with more liability being on the LEM and REC.
    So depending on what it is you do... It might be very warranted that people are asking questions.

    If its on appliances that can be removed from installations, ie: TV's, Microwaves Ovens, etc, then i have no idea, but you will get a direct answer from the governing body in your state.

    In Victoria it is Energy Safe Victoria
    In South Oz i have no idea, but Google it, then call them..... Even an Electrical Inspector in your state should know where you stand.

    I wouldn't take the answers given on a forum as a ticket to ride.

    Ask the people that make the rules.
    Then come back and post you answers here, i'm sure others would be interested in the outcome.

    PS. I classic example of the 2 Rules at play, was when a customer that wanted a Power Point in his backyard or power out to his shed.
    We'd give him a quote for a proper fixed wiring underground, dug to depth, all following the rules. Obviously, it wasn't cheap.
    Not as cheap as an extension lead, buried only 50mm in conduit and plugged into a outside power point on his house.
    The idea being, that once it left the power point, no rules applied

    This type of thing got changed with the introduction of another set of rules and also some amendments to AS3000.

    People interested in Caravan Type wiring, have a read here:

    Lots of things have changed in the last 20 years.
    A house that was built in a remote area, that was supplied by Solar and Batteries, could be wired by a non-electrician.
    But if grid power ever became available, the wiring was useless, and not recognised until a REC had either re-wired it or whatever..
    So that all got changed, now a dwelling must be wired by a REC or LEM, regardless of what supply it is to have.

    As for work the OP does, he will have to state.

    Its an interesting area, being a Sparky, i have never to worry too much about it.
    But, being a Sparky doesn't mean i can work on appliances, nor does it a Tech... from what you are explaining, anyone can work on a plugged in appliance.
    It is an area i'd like to know the answer to myself.

    End of the day, if your work kills or injures someone, where do you stand??
    That is the ONLY question you need to know, and you really should know the answer to it before working on site.
    If you knew that answer, you could tell the Electricians the answer to their questions
    Last edited by ol' boy; 01-10-14 at 01:03 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by typan View Post
    As I know it you can repair any type of electronic equipment be it 12 volts or 240 volts but you CAN NOT repair or play with mains voltage that the equipment plugs into like a 240v power outlets or light switch and stuff like that if you not a licensed electrician.
    I really don't understand what you said here??? Can you make it a little clearer, seems to go in circles.

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    Basically it all comes down to who pays when something goes wrong: liability.
    If you fix something (as self employed) and the owner has proof you did it then you MUST be insured for liability.

    Insurers know exactly the rules and I would contact them.
    They are obviously not going to insure you for sparky work if you do not have the right tickets.

    They will be able to tell you what qualifications you need for your scope of work when you inquire about liability insurance and you must stay clearly within that scope of course.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Downunder35m View Post
    Back in Europe I am licensed to perform all electrical works and repairs on systems from battery powered to 1000V.
    For obvious reasons I was very keen on getting this tranfered to AU standard lincenses.
    The problem is that this basically impossible!
    The AU system does not allow for it and I was asked to pay over a grand upfront (with no returns possible) to ONE AU license for it.
    Since the AU standards are in many cases far below the EU ones I was told I could get a standard sparky license after 3 months of training to learn the corresponding standards and how to work.
    For everything else I would have to take the full courses or start as an aprentice again.
    To get me covered here for all works I am allowed to perform in EU I would have to pay around 8500$, take around 8 courses and start three or four times as an aprentice.
    So maybe by the time I reach the pension age I would be able to actually start working in my old field again.
    After seeing some works on worksites and when my house had to get a new meter box I decided it is not worth the trouble.
    I agree that getting foreign skilled workers to AU standards is necessary and required but the license system in general here is outdated and overcomplicated.

    Just some examples of work I performed over the years:
    House installions, industrial installations and repairs, installation and removal of distribution lines, repair and soldering of SMD electronics (manual and with placement machines), high voltage works, traffic light systems and traffic management systems (the electrical and electronics, not the programming), building automated productions lines.....
    So basically everything that requires electrical power one way or the other.
    But I also noticed that some sparkies here don't know what they are doing when it comes to what is allowed and what not.
    On a worksite here I saw a (licensed) sparky going nuts and causing a massive scene because of an idian guy putting cables into a house under construction.
    The future owner had an agreement with the builder that he can do a lot of things himself to save on money, including to mark the placement of all switches and power outlets.
    So all the guy has done was putting the cable between the framework and to make nice drawings on the locations.
    The sparky had a massive rant, called a few numbers and had the whole worksite shut down.
    In his view the owner was not allowed to do any electrical works - which he did not as there was no power anyway and he only "installed" the cables, the actual connections were planned to be done by a licensed sparky anyway.
    Once an inspector from worksafe arrive his only comment was that he can't see any problems or violations and that the site is open again....
    Most likely I would have found problems with randomly "putting the cable between the framework"

    I am basically in the same boat as Downunder35m but also did electrical/electronic work in hospitals that required even stricter safety requirements.
    I would never attempt to become a sparky in Australia because I would not find one domestic electrical installation that I could sign off as safe with good conscience.
    For example if the house wiring in roof cavities were done correctly, run 300mm above horizontal surfaces, there would never have been any issues with pink batts. It is not KRudd's fault that electricians here can just sprawl the cables all over the ceiling joists for the unsuspected to drive staples into them
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    Quote Originally Posted by nomeat View Post
    For example if the house wiring in roof cavities were done correctly, run 300mm above horizontal surfaces, there would never have been any issues with pink batts. It is not KRudd's fault that electricians here can just sprawl the cables all over the ceiling joists for the unsuspected to drive staples into them
    What AS3000 rule is that??? pfft, what a load of dribble.

    Explain to me how your idea works when the unit is concrete floor/walls/ceiling and the plaster is battened off 45mm.
    There is NOTHING wrong with cables being run in insulation (or locations deemed to be), look at the rule book, there are tables for EXACTLY that

    Were there houses bursting into flames before "K Rudds" pillow project??? I don't think so......
    I'd say it had little to do with cabling and a lot to do with down lights and min distances from insulation.... and who knows what other physical damage those un trained mud cats did in ceiling spaces, kicking junction boxes, stopping on cables, leaving the plastic bags the insulation comes in, up in the ceiling, over lights.... i have seen that first hand.
    Last edited by ol' boy; 01-10-14 at 03:32 PM.

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    That is not an AS3000 rule but how it is done in civilized countries... AND NOT DRIBBLE!!!!!
    I have never heard of anybody electrocuting themselves there, while installing insulation batts.
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    So Australia is not a civilised country?? pleeeease.

    Take some meds, come back and post some facts, not utter crap.
    As you have already stated, you're NOT an Electrician... maybe leave it to people whom do it for a job and the big decisions to those that write the rule books.
    All the cabling in the house i am sitting in now runs through solid foam insulation, in every wall and batts in a 11" ceiling space.
    House is 25 years old, 50watt LV down lights in every room.... Never had the slightest problem.

    There are more problems from Silver foil paper and screws or nails going through the tin or cladding into an active conductor than any insulation batt problem.

    And how on earth were people meant to keep cable 300mm above a horizontal surface in a house built 30 years ago???
    Or in my house, where the ceiling space is only 250mm in total. Pls explain how your 300mm rule works here?

    Great job of posting more crap and taking the thread completely off topic at the same time.

    The OP was interested in where the line is drawn on work to carried out on an appliance that is to plug into a 240v GPO, with in a domestic installation (i imagine, unless he clears that up).

    I for one would be interested to know the answer to this in 2014.
    As it has changed over the years.... plus the introduction of different voltage work, being ELV, LV and HV.

    I think the OP needs to come back and explain more accurately the work he was undertaking.
    Last edited by ol' boy; 01-10-14 at 04:04 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by oceanboy View Post

    Were there houses bursting into flames before "K Rudds" pillow project??? I don't think so......
    I'd say it had little to do with cabling and a lot to do with down lights and min distances from insulation.... and who knows what other physical damage those un trained mud cats did in ceiling spaces, kicking junction boxes, stopping on cables, leaving the plastic bags the insulation comes in, up in the ceiling, over lights.... i have seen that first hand.
    You better start taking some pills if you really think there has never been an electrical fire before Krudd.

    That "physical damage those un trained mud cats did" you mention would have been avoided if it was standard procedure to run cables and have junctions at a safe height.

    Simply drilling a hole in the plaster and wacking in a gimble is apparently what you call quality work to install a halogen.
    Sorry I have to fail your work if you don't include safe cooling vents.

    The down lights in house I live in were installed by a sparkey with your attitude.
    When I wanted to replace them with LEDs I found two with the back of the aluminium gimble badly cracked from overheating.
    There wasn't any insulation but roof timber blocking the ventilation.

    Some more examples that make my toenails grow inwards:
    Dasy chaining of GPOs, 10A rated GPOs on a 20A circuit breaker, RCD on GPOs and lights but not on the range or HWS, blah, blah, I know it is not in your rule book but this crap would never get a pass where I had to work overseas and I would have got fired.
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    Quote Originally Posted by oceanboy View Post
    And how on earth were people meant to keep cable 300mm above a horizontal surface in a house built 30 years ago???
    Or in my house, where the ceiling space is only 250mm in total. Pls explain how your 300mm rule works here?
    They were already correctly installed 30 years ago. I never ran cable along the ceiling horizontal but ran up the side surface of the rafters, so that even if you stapled batts between the rafters you could not hit the cable.
    I don't see anybody stapeling batts in a 250mm roof cavity. Shoving in foam as you say.
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    You should become an Inspector here then nomeat and save us all from ourselves!
    And considering you don't eat meat, you wont miss your teeth either, as i feel you wouldn't have them very long once out inspecting in Oz
    I can see you have no concept of tradesman like work or the current rule book, or safety certs and inspectors or random inspections from ESV.
    I really can't lower myself to your level... Sorry, i just deal with facts and rules as written.

    If you want to rewrite how electricity works, go away and think how 50amps 3 phases, which would require a 16mm cable for each phase, only has a return path of 1 x 16mm neutral i guess in your world you would want use to run a 50mm Neutral.
    Last edited by ol' boy; 01-10-14 at 04:17 PM.

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    It might surprise you but I can run 3 phase even without neutral
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    It doesn't. But not every load is motor nomeat, lets see you do the same with a 3phase oven or floor heating.

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    Again you might be surprised that I have seen ovens/stoves in Germany that are three phase with the choice between delta and star by connecting bridges.
    Practically all instantaneous HWS are delta, consuming between 19-27kW but are still more efficient than storing a lot of water that is waiting to be used in a large tank while loosing energy.
    Last edited by Uncle Fester; 01-10-14 at 06:18 PM.
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