A new Hobby for the Black man

[Tiny]

Using Ammo boxes for Lipo Battery storage.
He Guy what do you think about Ammo boxes, These boxes a 100% sealed so would I have to drill holes in them just in case if one lipo shits itself and the pressure needs to escape.

Not sure about that.

What I use is a fairly heavy duty steel toolbox I got at the local hardware.
It is not airtight.

[Uncle Fester]

iCharger206B, Lipo Balance CHG, 4.0A AUTO

seems strange that it was the only one ever to do this and was all over in about 5 seconds - I pushed start it started as per normal - stood up and turned away, heard a pop and there was smoke bellowing out of it, and this was about 20 minutes after the postie delivered it....

got a fair idea what to do with lipo's and read a lot about them, got a few now



f

Before I put a newly purchased LiPo for the first time on the charger I check the individual cell voltage. If one cell is more than 0.30V different to the average of the others I claim refund. It has happened but I had to agree on partial refund.

There is nothing wrong with checking the individual cell voltage occasionally straight after a full charge with an accurate multimeter.

I had a charger that would charge up to 4.23V, although it only displayed 4.18V.
Not much room for error there.

[freakee1]

Mmmmm not a bad idea at all, hobbyking are sending a replacement and were happy to do so...... Did scare me, the speed at which it failed



f

[Tiny]

Mmmmm not a bad idea at all, hobbyking are sending a replacement and we're happy to do so...... Did scare me, the speed at which it failed



f

Glad they're replacing with no problems, that's good to know.

Which Charger are you using??

The one I use is SkyRC iMAX B6 LiPro Balance charger.
It does a battery check before charging (including individual cell differences when connected with balance lead) & will throw an error message if the Battery check determines that:
1: Cell count different from user set
2: Overall battery voltage higher or lower than user set.
3; Individual cell voltage is too low or too high
4; input voltage error
5; reverse polarity
& a few others

I'm charging a couple of 5400mah 6S LiPo (as well as smaller LiPo & like to be safe).

Next time I'll do an individual cell check with my multimeter to see how accurate it is.
Wouldn't like to see one of them go up, a lot of potential energy in there.

[admin]

Not all black men queue up in front of centrelink for a handout. I've watched our super and savings go out the window so the young can have 1% interest rates today. Do you think they care!.

Just a bit of tongue in cheek humour mate Not everyone may know that you are referring to yourself in the title

[freakee1]

Which Charger are you using??

f

[Tiny]

You present yourself here as a know-it-all LiPo expert yet is seems you do not even know the basics.

Before you defame other members with your ignorance I strongly suggest you read what a LiPo actually is:



Polymer refers to the enclosure and/or separator which are both inert. Experimental forms exist where solid polymers are used as an electrolyte but they are not marketed.
The fact the there is a metal enclosure around so called Li-Ion cells, does not make them safer either
On the contrary. The "LiPo" will puff and start hissing first before it catches fire giving you time to throw it far away or get the hell out of there,
while the metal cell can suddenly explode right in your face without warning.

Pfft; lets back up a minute, your statement was that in regards to Li-Po batteries;

Originally Posted by nomeat

They are, every smart phone these days has one."

Which is incorrect, the architecture & packaging of what is commonly called & labelled a Lithium ion battery & what is labelled a Lithium Polymer battery/Li-Po/Lithium Ion polymer battery, is 2 different things.
They do share the same or similar battery chemistry in most cases depending on the manufacturer & intended usage.

The most obvious difference being the packaging, one is encased in hard plastic or metal (& sometimes under compression); the hobbyist style Li-Po is in a pouch format polymer laminate or pouch cell, that resembles a food package which lacks rigidity, gives them room to expand a small amount during discharge & charge, is easy to puncture or distort which will cause failure & possible thermal runaway.

The later are not used in "every smart phone".
Possibly some, I can't say what percentage of devices may use Li-Po(soft pouch format) batteries. They are more than likely used in phones & devices that have metal enclosed battery compartments to prevent accidental puncture or distortion.

You will also notice the Caution labels that are on most hobbyist Li-Po batteries that come in flexible foil-type case (polymer laminate or pouch cell) that resembles a food package, & or in the manual for the Toy they came with & or the Charger; such as "Only charge the battery on a fireproof surface!" "DO NOT leave unattended while charging".

I don't see those labels on the Lithium ion phone batteries, Li-ion laptop batteries or Li-ion cordless tool batteries that I have, so the manufactures of these differently packaged Lithium batteries don't feel the need to use the same warnings. Hmm?

To make the modern Li-polymer battery conductive at room temperature, gelled electrolyte has been added. All Li-ion polymer cells today incorporate a micro porous separator with some moisture. Li-polymer can be built on many systems, such as Li-cobalt, NMC, Li-phosphate and Li-manganese, and is not considered unique battery chemistry. Most Li-polymer packs are for the consumer market and are based on Li-cobalt.

With gelled electrolyte added, what is the difference between a normal Li ion and Li ion polymer? As far as the user is concerned, lithium polymer is essentially the same as lithium-ion. Both systems use identical cathode and anode material and contain a similar amount of electrolyte. Li-polymer is unique in that a micro porous electrolyte replaces the traditional porous separator. Li-polymer offers slightly higher specific energy and can be made thinner than conventional Li-ion, but the manufacturing cost is higher by 10–30 percent.

Li-polymer cells also come in a flexible foil-type case (polymer laminate or pouch cell) that resembles a food package. While a standard Li-ion needs a rigid case to press the electrodes together, Li-polymer uses laminated sheets that do not need compression. A foil-type enclosure reduces the weight by more than 20 percent over the classic hard shell. Thin film technology liberates design as the battery can be made into any shape, fitting neatly into stylish mobile phones and laptops. Li-polymer can also be made very slim to resemble a credit card.

[Tiny]

f

Cool that looks excellent & more than likely by the description has the same protections as mine.
Suprised it didn't warn you of the cell difference,overall voltage irregularity or short, if that was what caused the failure?

If I need a 8S charger I'll look at that one for sure.

[Uncle Fester]

Pfft; lets back up a minute, your statement was that in regards to Li-Po batteries;

Which is incorrect,

What part of

Originally Posted by wikipedia
LiPo batteries are pervasive in mobile phones....

don't you understand, maybe the word pervasive : it means 'spread throughout'

...or perhaps you don't really understand what a polymer is ?
It is here just plastic, man.
...and has nothing to do with the chemistry.

If the Lithium Ion cell is covered in this plastic it is a LiPo !
It matters not if it is a foil or a 3mm thick plastic case. It is still a LiPo.
If you check Hobby king you will also find such LiPos with a hard plastic shell for your toys. Maybe should be used more often.

SO TRY TO GET IT INTO YOUR HEAD ONCE AND FOR ALL:
LiPo, Li-Ion or Lithium-Ion-Polymer, what ever you want to call them behave all the same if they are over/undercharged, shorted, punctured or exposed to heat.
They will develop thermal runaway end explode, no matter what packaging.

Those in phones, tools and laptops are charged without user intervention through the device or propriety charger and don't require the same warnings as your hobby battery, where it easy to make a fatal mistake using the wrong charger or settings or leaving out the balance connection.

...and for the record those enclosed in metal like the 18650 are not LiPo and are more commonly used in tools and laptops but I have never seen one in a Phone.
So please show me one.
The thin metal foil around some smart phone batteries does not count as it contributes only little to the structural integrity.

[Mr 672A]

Not sure about that.

What I use is a fairly heavy duty steel toolbox I got at the local hardware.
It is not airtight.

I purchased a new Ammo box from espray and they are air and water tight so I will have to leave the lid unlocked. The only problem I see is if you have say 5 Lipo's in that 300MMx180mmx150MM ammo box and one shits itself it will wipe out the others. Maybe I need to put a steel separator in between each lipo.

[Tiny]

That may be a good idea.

I use an open steel caddy to charge in & then put it in the toolbox to store the most recently charged battery with a degree of separation from the others.

From my research the batteries are most vulnerable if they have been damaged, so don't store or charge a damaged battery; discharge it & get rid of it.

The next most vulnerable time is discharging. My 6S 5400mah bats get quite warm after a 15minute flight.

The next is charging. If you charge at a rate of 1C they shouldn't get warm.
Always follow the battery manufacturers advice on charging rates.

Then for a short period after charging to full capacity.

If you intend to store for a long period it is recommended to charge or discharge to ~ half capacity for storage.
High quality chargers have a storage charge mode.

This is my tool box with caddy in.



EDIT: this may not be the ideal storage box solution with 5 baterries in it; certainly better than nothing & I can't see the need for a separate toolbox for each battery.

[Mr 672A]

The next is charging. If you charge at a rate of 1C they shouldn't get warm.

I have become confused on the "C" ratings on these batteries
Can you please explain the difference between a 4000mAh 6S 20C, 4000mAh 6S 25, 4000mAh 6S 30C, 4000mAh 6S 40C and how they are effected when being charged

[Mr 672A]

Funny thing was my wife noted that I was down in the dumps due to my health lately (had another small stroke weeks ago) and she purchased the plane's for me and everything that is needed to cheer me up a little. Isn't she a good wife that looks after her old man. She seems to know what I want without me asking. Maybe she can read my mind.Its just as well she is the one with all the money otherwise I would have a house full of toys.

[Mr 672A]

Check out the third video. Using Ammo boxes for Lipo Batteries

[Tiny]

I have become confused on the "C" ratings on these batteries
Can you please explain the difference between a 4000mAh 6S 20C, 4000mAh 6S 25, 4000mAh 6S 30C, 4000mAh 6S 40C and how they are effected when being charged

Those C ratings are to do with discharge usage, the C Rating (eg;5C or 25C) this gives you a rating of how much power you can draw in a specified time without causing a premature low voltage or overheated battery.

5C is for slow draw of power, 20C & above for aggressive usage of power in short bursts without overtaxing the battery.
Hope that helps.

Here is an example of the specs of a 4000mAh 6S 40C.
Spec.
Minimum Capacity: 4000mAh
Configuration: 6S1P / 22.2v / 6Cell
Constant Discharge: 40C
Peak Discharge (10sec): 50C


"So what does the C rating on a lipo mean? For starters, the C in C Rating stands for capacity. To break it down to its simplest terms, the C rating is the maximum safe continuous discharge rate of a pack. If you see 10C on your battery, it means it can be discharged at 10 times that pack's capacity. Capacity refers to the milliamp-hour rating of the battery, which will be listed as a number followed by mAh (2000mAh, for example).

Here's the easy way to find your battery's discharge rate just multiply the number from the C rating by the pack's capacity. Keep in mind that 1000 milliamps equals one amp. Here's an example, using an 11.1V 2000mAh 10C
11.1 volt 2000mAh -10C
2000 milliamps = 2 amps
2 Amps x 10 = 20 amps continuous discharge

This means that you can safely draw up to 20 amps continuously from that 11.1V 2000mAh 10C without doing damage to your battery."

Using that equation on your 4000mAh 6S 40C.
22.2v 4000mAh -40C
4000 milliamps = 4 amps
4 Amps x 40 = 160 amps continuous discharge.

Now that is what that battery can handle for a short period & if you do continuously draw at that rate it will be flat quick.


The C rating for charging is different & will most likely be on the battery or packaging as well, works like this, if you have a 4000mAh battery a 1C charge rate will be 4 A/H, 2C would be 8 A/H.
C is still for Capacity
4000 milliamps = 4Amps
1C charging rate = 4Amps
2C = 8Amps & so on.

Most of these hobby batteries are happy to be charged at a rate between 1C & 2C.
EDIT: I should say here that I usually charge at 1C except in the case of my 6S as below.
The best practice is to follow the manufacturers info on charging.

I have one battery a 3S 3300 mAh 25C battery that states on the packaging, "DO NOT charge at less than 3 amps or more than 7 amps". That's a charge rate of no less than 0.91C & no more than 2.12C.

Yet I have 2x 6S 5400mAh 10C batteries that the supplied charger can only manage to charge at 2.2A/H which is only 0.4C charging rate.

That's probably enough maths for now.
Hope that helps.

[Mr 672A]

Oooooh yeah Thank you for explaining it to me and to others that are a bit scratchy on this subject.

[Tiny]

Oooooh yeah Thank you for explaining it to me and to others that are a bit scratchy on this subject.

no worries mate, love to help.
Just tell me when I go overboard.

Check out the third video. Using Ammo boxes for Lipo Batteries

Yeah, seen those before, fun when it's controlled not so fun when it surprises you.

Be careful & safe with your batteries & everything should be OK.

Even he states in his blog;

Just so you know. I still charge in my house even though I am the one burning the lipos. I charge 10+ Lipo battery packs at once plus 3 transmitters and have never had an indoor fire and doubt I ever will, but I am ready if it happens.

I'm not afraid of Lipos--- I respect them. They are only as dangerous as I let them be.

I throw away damaged lipo batteries. Well I sort of throw them away.
I balance my lipo cells, that have the balancing option, between every charge.
I don't over charge or over discharge. I hate puffed lipos.
I charge lipos after I fly and don't let batteries sit discharged.
I wait for lipos to cool. I don't charge warm/hot lipo batteries.
I don't field charge even though I am set up to do so due to heat and distractions.
I choose props and motors that keep the batteries with in their recommended limits.
I triple check my chargers.
My Hobbico MKIIs have green lights for lipos that I can see from across the room.
My Electrifly Polycharge 4 only will charge lipos so I know that it is set for the right battery type.
My chargers are quick to alarm if batteries are not charging normally.
I charge multiple batteries at once so I can stay with them. This is my build time.
I have glued the charge adjustment knobs on my chargers so they don't accidentally get set to higher charge rates.
I use a bunker that separates every battery.
My chargers are 4' from the charging batteries.
There are no combustable materials near the charging batteries.
I have just concrete and tin in burning range of the bunkers.
I have a fire alarm specific for the chargers mounted directly above the charge site.
I have a fire extinguisher outside the door of the room whare I charge the batteries. I would have a house of foul smelly smoke, but I would have a house.

Some good precautions, some a little over the top.
You make your own decisions on what is safe for you, your hobby & your assets (house).

[Mr 672A]

Never enough information for me my friend

[Mr 672A]

Well I crashed my F15 and totally destroyed it (Complete elevator tore off during flight) but I wished I had a camera or someone taking a video as it hit the ground so hard the the lipo battery decided to shit itself and went up in smoke. It was an impressive crash and burn.
I flew for the second time my Russian SU 35. This model has to be the easiest by a country mile of flying as it has such a wide body that no doubt gives it stability. This SU 35 fusealage is 1.65M long, Yes it a biggy.
I have replaced both EDF Motors with two Dr Thrust Counter rotating 12 blade motors and its got some serious thrust as when I tested it (thrust wise) in the lounge room 7 M away from the blinds and both my legs either side of the fuselage in front of the wings blocking it under full power it damaged (tore off) two vertical blind as they were severely flapping in the breeze. Most get confused what counter rotating EDF motors are. Its simple! if you look at both motors from the front of the plane and say the right hand side motor on the right turns clockwise to give you thrust forward the motor on the left side rotates the opposite way (anti -clockwise) to give you thrust (blade on that motor cut the other way).
Now By this I would presume that this would balance the torque of both the motors making the plane easier to fly.
I will one day put a few pics up here of my planes whenever I stop adding or increasing the sizes of some of my dishes that has kept me busy lately + I'm working on a new "HECTO" project of mine.