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Thread: hdd failure rate on ip systems

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    Default hdd failure rate on ip systems

    hey everyone was wondering if anyone else is having trouble with drives in there ip nvrs? we have tried multiple drives wd black and wd purple and even Seagate but the nvr wont really go over 12 months. why? the drives are covered with full 5 year warranty still failure after failure it has to be the nvr. nvr is nuuo range anyone else experienced



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    Quote Originally Posted by cazfredjack View Post
    hey everyone was wondering if anyone else is having trouble with drives in there ip nvrs? we have tried multiple drives wd black and wd purple and even Seagate but the nvr wont really go over 12 months. why? the drives are covered with full 5 year warranty still failure after failure it has to be the nvr. nvr is nuuo range anyone else experienced
    About 12 months ago I Pre-Programmed 150 Samsung NVR's for a national client before they were sent around the country & NZ for Installation. All were using WD Blue HD's. All are still up and running thus far. I have noticed issues in the past with other model NVR's and HD's lasting 6-12 months. try using a slower RPM HD. The new Seagate Survelliance range is 5900RPM compared to the WD 7200RPM. The Seagates do use more power consumption but generally last longer in other model NVR's as they dont get as hot.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cazfredjack View Post
    hey everyone was wondering if anyone else is having trouble with drives in there ip nvrs? we have tried multiple drives wd black and wd purple and even Seagate but the nvr wont really go over 12 months. why? the drives are covered with full 5 year warranty still failure after failure it has to be the nvr. nvr is nuuo range anyone else experienced
    Had the same problem with Nuuo. Have stopped using them as a result.

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    Interesting..!
    I would think that there could be a few reasons this would happen due to the software not running a suitable duty cycle load on the HDDs.
    Things like compression, read/write loads, searching, archiving, metadata, frame rate, cooling, power supplies etc all will have some bearing.
    Also running windows in the background and the amount of cache in the machine.


    Quote Originally Posted by Drift View Post
    Had the same problem with Nuuo. Have stopped using them as a result.

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    I reckon its got to be the compression and read/write load. we have backed off frame rate and resolution to see what happens? I understand heat but some of these are in dedicated server rooms with air con. system is running Linux as far as I know? its a shame they seem pretty user friendly from customer point of view and not limited to what camera ya can use. they have a new version out which is a 2 bay unit but im sure there is no other difference as far as I know?

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    I have an idea of what your problem is, however, I need to know a few things;

    1. Model of camera and compression in use?
    2. Recording resolution? i.e 1.3, 3 or 5MP?
    3. Number of cameras per system?
    4. Storage array/configuration?

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    Whats the actual fault with the drives ? If WD have you run Data Lifeguard?

    SMART errors or bad sectors ?

    Is this the Titan NVR ?

    If so it runs embedded Linux, doesn't look like it has a dedicated RAID card, just onboard.

    Are you running RAID? If so is it RAID 5 ?

    Have you tried enterprise drives like WD RE ?

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    Without going in to too much detail, the difference here is going to be the limitation of direct access storage (DAS).

    DAS in DVR's were OK because the read/write bandwidth was never an issue. Start recording 16 channels of 3+ MP cameras, and DAS isn't going to cut it. Hence most reputable IP Video systems record to NAS and/or SAN storage systems.

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    Quote Originally Posted by intelliGEORGE View Post
    Without going in to too much detail, the difference here is going to be the limitation of direct access storage (DAS).

    DAS in DVR's were OK because the read/write bandwidth was never an issue. Start recording 16 channels of 3+ MP cameras, and DAS isn't going to cut it. Hence most reputable IP Video systems record to NAS and/or SAN storage systems.

    I don't see how.

    If you're meaning internal storage or DAS external storage.

    Both are actually faster than NAS/SAN.

    DAS can go real high end, look at units like Dell's PowerVault series.

    Doesn't have the flexiblity or scalability, but I/O ain't an issue.

    A poor NAS or SAN can be far far slower or if not done right be more prone to failure

    Some cheaper NAS gear have piss poor performance.

    NUUO does actually support external DAS/SAN appliances from reputable storage companies.


    How is lacking I/O going to kill drives anyway ?

    My money would be more that it is running an onboard software RAID implementation, RAID 5 and with consumer drives. Potentially, depends what the OP is actually using.

    Some combination there might be causing dramas. I know that consumer drives can timeout on an error recovery/sector remap and drop off the array and make it degraded. Also many storage companies have recommended not using RAID 5 in general.

    Plus environmental concerns aren't necessarily ruled out.

    Heat, vibration or power. Would be an absolute pain to determine though. Any voltage, temperature and fan logging for a start ?

    If it's in a server room that's great but if a case fan is seized or it's choked with dust it can still overheat for example.

    Also some good data would be helpful, how many are actually failing as a fraction of how many were installed, how long are they lasting, how are they actually failing ?

    Does sound rather short but is it a bad batch or just some small statistical anomaly or is there a much worse underlying issue.
    Last edited by dmaher; 23-08-15 at 06:36 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dmaher View Post
    I don't see how.

    If you're meaning internal storage or DAS external storage.

    Both are actually faster than NAS/SAN.

    DAS can go real high end, look at units like Dell's PowerVault series.

    Doesn't have the flexiblity or scalability, but I/O ain't an issue.

    A poor NAS or SAN can be far far slower or if not done right be more prone to failure

    Some cheaper NAS gear have piss poor performance.

    NUUO does actually support external DAS/SAN appliances from reputable storage companies.


    How is lacking I/O going to kill drives anyway ?

    My money would be more that it is running an onboard software RAID implementation, RAID 5 and with consumer drives. Potentially, depends what the OP is actually using.

    Some combination there might be causing dramas. I know that consumer drives can timeout on an error recovery/sector remap and drop off the array and make it degraded. Also many storage companies have recommended not using RAID 5 in general.

    Plus environmental concerns aren't necessarily ruled out.

    Heat, vibration or power. Would be an absolute pain to determine though. Any voltage, temperature and fan logging for a start ?

    If it's in a server room that's great but if a case fan is seized or it's choked with dust it can still overheat for example.

    Also some good data would be helpful, how many are actually failing as a fraction of how many were installed, how long are they lasting, how are they actually failing ?

    Does sound rather short but is it a bad batch or just some small statistical anomaly or is there a much worse underlying issue.
    My reference to DAS in this instance is internal storage.

    Most security practitioners use basic calculators to work out storage requirement, and due to the rapid technological development, haven't grasped storage requirements at all. One common overlooked measure in storage requirements, are Input/Output Operations Per Second (IOPS). Typically, a 7,200 rpm SATA hard disc handles approximately 75-100 IOPS.

    In an IP system, IOPS can be anywhere between 10-30 per channel, continuous 24x7x356; and as such, will result in reliability issues caused by excessive head travel from read/write conflicts. Let's not forget that cyclic recording causes fragmentation and randomisation, which also wreaks havoc on the disc.
    Last edited by intelliGEORGE; 23-08-15 at 09:41 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by intelliGEORGE View Post
    My reference to DAS in this instance is internal storage.

    Most security practitioners use basic calculators to work out storage requirement, and due to the rapid technological development, haven't grasped storage requirements at all. One common overlooked measure in storage requirements, are Input/Output Operations Per Second (IOPS). Typically, a 7,200 rpm SATA hard disc handles approximately 75-100 IOPS.

    In an IP system, IOPS can be anywhere between 10-30 per channel, continuous 24x7x356; and as such, will result in reliability issues caused by excessive head travel from read/write conflicts. Let's not forget that cyclic recording causes fragmentation and randomisation, which also wreaks havoc on the disc.
    Fair points and this may be the case. You'd hope that WD would have considered this with the WD Purple drives.

    If the OP has a 4 bay Titan NVR, I don't see how a 4 bay SATA NAS, SAN or external DAS running software RAID (on an Atom no less) with the same drived would be any better than the current internal storage. Apples for apples.

    If you are correct then the entire storage setup needs an overhaul and upgrade.

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    In my experience, you can put almost any hard drive into an xVR, as you can with most IT equipment. The key is to look at the potential costs of reliability issues. Sure, a WD Blue drive is likely to function for a good period of time, but with the huge number of variables (as mentioned - heat, dust, vibration) it is imperative that an informed choice is made.
    I am generally a fan of WD Purple or WD Red drives as they are specifically designed (hardware/firmware) with intensive duty cycles in mind.

    Curiously, I have seen situations where controller firmware (within the xVR) experiences issues with the hard drive firmware, generally resolved by either a disk firmware update or a device firmware update. Be interesting to see whether the drive is able to report SMART status within a PC after it indicates failed within the device.

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    What do you mean they won't go over 12 months? Do they simple stop working? I've had this problem with an SanDisk SD card in a Dash Cam after 6 months of use. It simply died.

    Western Digital Purple are dedicated for CCTV DVR's and recording systems so i don't think it's the problem with the HDD. Seagate is also a good brand for CCTV which some of our systems use and have never had problems with. I'd assume it's related to the DVR itself maybe? Do you know the max capacity that the DVR can hold? Some DVR's can only hold 2TB max so if it's running a 4TB drive that may be the problem. If you could provide more info i may be able to find the issue.

    Where did you buy the drives from? Did you buy them online from China? Because the Chinese can simply make their own HDD and slap on a WD sticker saying it's genuine when in fact it isn't. You can't get a good price for HDD's, they are usually the same price give or take $20 where ever you go. So if you purchased a 1TB WD drive for $50 then it most likely will be fake and will work for about a year and then stop.
    Last edited by OverWatch; 24-01-16 at 11:27 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by OverWatch View Post
    What do you mean they won't go over 12 months? Do they simple stop working? I've had this problem with an SanDisk SD card in a Dash Cam after 6 months of use. It simply died.

    Western Digital Purple are dedicated for CCTV DVR's and recording systems so i don't think it's the problem with the HDD. Seagate is also a good brand for CCTV which some of our systems use and have never had problems with. I'd assume it's related to the DVR itself maybe? Do you know the max capacity that the DVR can hold? Some DVR's can only hold 2TB max so if it's running a 4TB drive that may be the problem. If you could provide more info i may be able to find the issue.
    I Have also experienced this with embedded NVR's, HIKVISION in particular. The WD Purple doesn't fair too well with 8x cameras at 3.2 MP so dropping them to 2mp helps. there is also a 'HDD sleep' feature that I tend to turn off, this seems to have helped.

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    There's a definite issue with NVRs and the associated equipment if it's not on a UPS, as they seem far more prone to damage with electrical surges and lightning strikes, and we've found the most common component to go with our systems (Q-See), seems to be the hard drives.
    Putting a UPS in there seems to alleviate the issue, and we've a few sites where the Hard drives are heading into their third year (and still working fine), but yes as intelliGEORGE has quite rightly pointed out, the hard drives themselves will start (are already starting) to have issues as the demand to be able to write to the HDDs (trying to keep this low tech like I'm talking to my family members who aren't technical at all) increases.
    Currently most NVRs cap out at 4 MPs, and there's a limit on how many you can have on the NVR itself.
    Our larger NVRs can support up to 256 channels at 720P and 128 channels at 1080P, and provided the entire network (including switches etc) are all on a UPS, then the hard drives (up to 24) have so far held well past that 12 month period.
    As the demand for better quality images jump, trying to get this information of hard drive limitations across to an end user who insists they can buy a HDD on "ebay" that's 4-6 TB for just $x, which is far bigger than say the SSD solution you've proposed, gets harder. These days, a youtube video, and access to ebay makes everyone an "expert"

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