Running a Resort of Solar?

[ol' boy]

I thought i'd post this here as there seems to be some good Solar People and thoughts getting around.
I have a job to attend in the next month.
Its an Eco Lodge in the Top End of NT.

There is No Grid Power available.

They have a Commercial Kitchen,
10 Cabins all with reverse cycle AC that is never turned off
A dinning area, more AC and lighting etc
Workshop, Sheds, other accom options, etc

They have a large Solar system installed, but not connected into the Battery and Generator set up.

Currently they burn $20,000 of Diesel a month (not so Eco hey)
They have asked if i can connect their Solar Panels and save them money of fuel costs.

So far i have limited info of Specs, Full Load Current from the Resort, Size of Solar Array and Battery Storage.
But from my phone conversation, it seems they just have too many high load appliances that need to be left on 24/7.

10 x AC unit in Cabins
Bar Fridges in Cabins
AC Units in Lodge
Commercial Refrigeration in Kitchen (3 Fridges, Freezer), Bar, so on
General Lighting and Power.
Pumps for water, etc.

Hence, they really need the Generator on to handle the load.... And if the Generator is running, what is the point of injecting in the Solar Feed?
You would already be making more energy than you need, so why add more wasted energy.

Which brings me to the Batteries and Storage ability.
The obvious answer is to create a massive Battery Room to store any and all excess energy being produced.
And try and cut the Generator run times down.
This will then add an Auto Start facility that is called by the state of the Batteries or Sudden High Load situations.

Thoughts?
I'll try and get some details in the mean time

In the current configuration, it seems near on pointless to add the Solar to the system, as the Generators never stop running.

All i can think is a massive Battery Room and Inverter sized to handle the "Mean Load", then have Auto Load Sensing to Start the Generator in Random Peak Times and use a Timer to start the Generator in "Known Peak Times', with excess energy then charging the Battery Bank (in which case, the Solar might be Auto disconnected anyway)

P.S. The funny thing is, this Resort has won accreditation for "Environmental Best Practice", with its Power Generation and use of waste water, and to this date, the Solar panels have just been there for decoration
I wonder how often this has happened before?

[spook]

If they are spending $20000 a month on diesel, they could set up their entire complex on solar and lifepo4 for 3-5 months of diesel and not have to use a gennie at all. There are a number of fully solar resorts around, it all depends on how you use your energy and how you don't. The best approach would be to individualise each section of the resort, so you can access energy from each area when needed and each area would be self contained. So if one goes down, the rest compensates and take over, Very simple to do and can be done in sections to spread costs over time and seasons, you would start with the biggest energy consuming areas first to start reducing generation costs and work out from them.

[fandtm666]

their ovens / fryers / commercial fridges / freezer's all 3 phase ???

that is where you will find the trouble and then having to rewire that area to run of the genny and the rest of separate
circuits to run off the solar banks.

[ol' boy]

their ovens / fryers / commercial fridges / freezer's all 3 phase ???

that is where you will find the trouble and then having to rewire that area to run of the genny and the rest of separate
circuits to run off the solar banks.

Yeah, not sure, going to fly up in a week or so.
Already talking about replacing the 2 Generators for newer ones.

Ovens, Fryers would be LPG
Commercial Cool Rooms and Freezers are 1 phase i guess, not 100%, but i'd imagine they are.

[ol' boy]

If they are spending $20000 a month on diesel, they could set up their entire complex on solar and lifepo4 for 3-5 months of diesel and not have to use a gennie at all. There are a number of fully solar resorts around, it all depends on how you use your energy and how you don't. The best approach would be to individualise each section of the resort, so you can access energy from each area when needed and each area would be self contained. So if one goes down, the rest compensates and take over, Very simple to do and can be done in sections to spread costs over time and seasons, you would start with the biggest energy consuming areas first to start reducing generation costs and work out from them.

Yes, i have their Fuel Budget as leverage.
I'm just not sure it is going to be as simple as you say.
The resort is existing, and has been running for a few years now.

I just spoke to the Resort Manager, and the Air Cons in Cabins have to stay running 24/7, especially in the wet, other wise they get mould.
They are small inverter Air Cons, don't draw too much power.

[gordon_s1942]

As an aside here, the current Generator chunders away happily 24/7 at a 'mean rate' of fuel/wear and tear but would starting and stopping to 'top up' the Batteries be such a good idea overall?
What about the Batteries because would I be wrong in thinking that the Generator handles the majority of the load and the Batteries are there as 'Back Up' if the Generator goes down?

Obviously if anyone was building a Resort and planned it to be basically Solar powered, everything from the wire used, lights and appliances would be designed to be as power efficient as possible but to do a later conversion might not be such a good idea with the way the place is structured now.

One question is why have Solar Panels installed and not utilise them in some way?
Unless it was for some sort of Tax Break to put them in.

[ol' boy]

You would think so gordon.

I was also wondering about the "Cycling of the Generators".... If the Battery Storage and Inverters weren't big enough.
Currently there are 2 Gen Sets, they are huge, 200Kw each (according to the owner)

I think they run them alternatingly, so they always have one as a spare incase one fails.

[ol' boy]

One question is why have Solar Panels installed and not utilise them in some way?
Unless it was for some sort of Tax Break to put them in.

Yes, i was thinking that maybe some one got a grant.
But essentially, it is advertised as an Eco Resort, so the panels are to make you feel warm and fuzzy.

They probably didn't connected them in the end, because the Generators were running full time anyway
I must admit, with out having a Site Inspection, and just trying to understand what info i am being told, it is hard to understand what is really going on up there.

Obviously there was a Power Plant Design at some stage... Someone must have sized it, designed it, built it.
But, everyone has run away and new owners have purchased the lot.

[gordon_s1942]

Based on what you said earlier Oceanboy, I didnt think a location like that would rely on a single generator even if its the best in the world because as we all well know, things dont always go to plan.
I dont doubt for one minute that the power plant for that Resort wasnt designed and built to the 'Best Standard' at the time and is still today viable but because of changes in technology and equipment, can it economically be changed today?

While running the generators seems wastefull, I tend to worry seeing the place is as remote as it is that if was only used 'On Demand' and having no other source of reliable power, isnt it Murphy's Law that things go wrong together ???

Also that adage of if its working, leave it alone.
Look at it, think about it and plan for the future BUT for now....................

[spook]

Yes, i have their Fuel Budget as leverage.
I'm just not sure it is going to be as simple as you say.
The resort is existing, and has been running for a few years now.

I just spoke to the Resort Manager, and the Air Cons in Cabins have to stay running 24/7, especially in the wet, other wise they get mould.
They are small inverter Air Cons, don't draw too much power.

The technicalities of changing over to fully solar are simple, the logistics may be a different matter. Today you have no need to re-wire you premises when going solar, pure sine wave inverters directly connected to a 240v system and changing to LED globes solves many problems. My first couple of solar homes ran on 12v, this one will run on 240v via inverters so requires no re-wiring.

If you set your packs up as a 48v systems, you can get away with using lighter gauge wiring compared to 12v. All you really have to do is put the solar energy into the lifepo4 packs, invert them into the established system. Being the outback, it would be easy to set up and large solar array close to the generation system.

On my house have a 12v 3000-6000w inverter with huge wiring between the pack and inverter, which are only 30cm long, simply because 12v inverters are cheap compared to higher voltages and i wanted to see how they cope with very high amp draw.

To stop machinery going mouldy is another simple thing and we use it on boats all the time, which suffer from moisture condensation and rot. You simply install small solar powered exhaust fans and they keep rooms etc free of moisture, which means they could turn off air conditioners when units are not in use.

I know of a couple of rural businesses which are fully solar and they use gas for cooking, now with induction cooking, you can cook on solar and use much less energy than elements. the technology is available, it all depends on whether you want to live successfully in this century and all its coming economic, energy and fuel problems, or remain within the past and pay the never ending rising costs. When it comes to a business, Know which direction I'd be heading if I want to keep my budget sane and viable.

[ol' boy]

their ovens / fryers / commercial fridges / freezer's all 3 phase ???

that is where you will find the trouble and then having to rewire that area to run of the genny and the rest of separate
circuits to run off the solar banks.

Correction, there are 3 Phase Commercial Clothes Dryers and Pumps
The 2 Generators run on 14 day rotation.
There is also 3 Inverters next to each other from the Solar Panels, so i guess this to provide a 3 Phase 240 Supply to match that of the Gen Set.

Seems like it has been set up correctly, just never quite finished to be a Solar and Battery system.
Apparently the Generator people, didn't speak to the Solar people, and when it came to marrying everything together, it just never happened.

[shred]

Is there a river nearby? I know it's the top end, but they must get drinking water from somewhere... If so, could a micro-hydro system be a solution? "Lemonthyme Lodge" in Tassie has been running from micro-hydro for the last 25 years and from what I've seen when I've been there, it's a beautiful thing. Low maintenance and 24x7 power.

[ol' boy]

Is there a river nearby? I know it's the top end, but they must get drinking water from somewhere... If so, could a micro-hydro system be a solution? "Lemonthyme Lodge" in Tassie has been running from micro-hydro for the last 25 years and from what I've seen when I've been there, it's a beautiful thing. Low maintenance and 24x7 power.

They are near a river, but i think it hardly flows.
More full of Crocs really.

Also, the Resort does have a low season (wet season) so it would be nice if the whole place can run off Solar and Batteries during this time and not be so reliant on Diesel.

Resort is 8 years old, so hopefully most things are up to date.
Especially regarding LED lighting.

[ol' boy]

The first paper calculations i've just done have returned some scary figures!

A rough calc has brought me to 37653 Kwh/month
(not sure about the online calculator, seems high)
If i want to make the Resort 100% Solar efficient, and allowing 7 Solar Hours per day.
Min Size System 179214 Watts
@ 200 Watt Panels
Thats 897 Panels

Hmmmmmmm no wonder they burn $20,000 of Diesel a month
Which is $27.40 an Hour.

[crazy]

We had a quote for a 33,000 Kw/h per month system, 1156 panels to produce 260kw at around $650,000
But as we would still need to pay for max demand, it wasn't worth it for us.

[lsemmens]

Just 'cause there's snapping handbags in the water does not mean that you cannot harness the flow of the river. Most rivers in the Top End are tidal with huge tidal flows so do not write that off as an option, you are not, then, reliant upon the weather or fossil fuels. A tidal power plant might be the go.