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Thread: Bosch 880 - Batteries failing soon after replacing

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    Default Bosch 880 - Batteries failing soon after replacing

    Hi guys,

    I've had an issue with my Bosch Ultima 880 panel where the batteries keep displaying as faulty.

    I'm comfortable replacing the batteries and would expect them to last anywhere from 3 to 5 years on average, however I had issues with one maybe 3 to 6 months after installing it. I knew the supplier and he gave me another battery to test and it had the same issue as well. I'd be surprised if it's a bad batch of batteries, but I can't rule it out.

    It gets the exclamation inside the triangle, to indicate the fault and then when I go into fault analysis mode, it always shows 1, but then sometimes 2. These seem to be 1 for battery, 2 for date which makes sense.

    There's also been a few false alarms and when I enter I can see that all PIR's show for recent events, which I assume is due to low power at the PIR's.

    It seems to be somewhat intermittent too. I don't believe the entire battery has failed, or the charging circuit as when I've run a multimeter across it, the voltages seem acceptable. The voltage on the battery does get low, but then also charges up and the error goes away, sometimes for months, so if it had failed completely, that wouldn't be the case.

    The other thing that I've noticed, is that it seems to be more frequent in warmer weather, but that's more observational than confirmed.

    From what I've read, mainly on here, the panel runs mainly off the battery and then uses the power adaptor to top up the battery. I also read a handy tip from one of the guys here that corrosion on the terminals could be an issue too, but they seem fine when I inspected them.

    I'd be considering a new battery from a different supplier and then potentially a new AC adaptor, but it would be great to get some advice from the experts before I jump in with my logic alone! ;-)

    Any tips would be really appreciated!

    Thanks



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    Quote Originally Posted by TechTronic View Post
    Hi guys,

    I've had an issue with my Bosch Ultima 880 panel where the batteries keep displaying as faulty.

    I'm comfortable replacing the batteries and would expect them to last anywhere from 3 to 5 years on average, however I had issues with one maybe 3 to 6 months after installing it. I knew the supplier and he gave me another battery to test and it had the same issue as well. I'd be surprised if it's a bad batch of batteries, but I can't rule it out.

    It gets the exclamation inside the triangle, to indicate the fault and then when I go into fault analysis mode, it always shows 1, but then sometimes 2. These seem to be 1 for battery, 2 for date which makes sense.

    There's also been a few false alarms and when I enter I can see that all PIR's show for recent events, which I assume is due to low power at the PIR's.

    It seems to be somewhat intermittent too. I don't believe the entire battery has failed, or the charging circuit as when I've run a multimeter across it, the voltages seem acceptable. The voltage on the battery does get low, but then also charges up and the error goes away, sometimes for months, so if it had failed completely, that wouldn't be the case.

    The other thing that I've noticed, is that it seems to be more frequent in warmer weather, but that's more observational than confirmed.

    From what I've read, mainly on here, the panel runs mainly off the battery and then uses the power adaptor to top up the battery. I also read a handy tip from one of the guys here that corrosion on the terminals could be an issue too, but they seem fine when I inspected them.

    I'd be considering a new battery from a different supplier and then potentially a new AC adaptor, but it would be great to get some advice from the experts before I jump in with my logic alone! ;-)

    Any tips would be really appreciated!

    Thanks
    Is the charge light coming on and off to show that it's charging? Try doing a battery test under full load to check status of charging if battery is new and to see if it holds. I'm pretty sure you will find it actually run off the psu and then chops over to battery when the power is out etc. I would suspect either charge circuit or faulty power supply remembering sla batteries only like being float charged, once they drop below say 10v you start to kill them and they get harder to recover over time.

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    It runs off the psu but requires battery power to operate sirens etc

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    Make sure that you have installed a SLA battery that is a "constant charge" type, and not a "deep cycle" type, as these are not designed to be used as alarm backup batteries. I went to a site recently where the owner had done the battery change themselves to save money and unknowingly replaced the existing alarm backup battery with a "deep cycle" type (the guy at the shop where he bought it said it would be fine...). It lasted 6 months before it started to leak everywhere and the terminals had corroded.

    I had a similar problem with a site recently to the one you describe. A "low battery" fault was coming up so the battery was replaced. It lasted a week then the same thing happened. In the end, the Ultima 880 board turned out to be faulty. Replaced the board and haven't heard back since.

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    Thanks guys, your explanations on how and when it uses the battery makes more sense and is what I thought prior to reading a few other posts I came across in my searches.

    shadow1987, that's a handy tip about testing it at full load. I haven't ever tried that and will have a chat to my neighbours first to let them know to expect it as well. I did leave the cover off for about a week at one stage so I could test it once I saw the fault on the keypad, but like all those intermittent faults, of course it decided to work fine for that entire period! It's currently got the fault showing, so I was able to take the cover off and inspect it while it's in this state.

    - No corrosion on terminals
    - I ran a multimeter across the battery and it showed as 6.6V.
    - There was no charge light on (assuming the charge light you're referring to is between the battery and 12VAC fuses.)
    - I removed the battery altogether and measured across the charging leads and got 13.82
    - Connect the previous battery that I kept from last time, which was first installed about a year ago and the charging light came on quite brightly. I didn't think of measuring this previous battery before connecting it up again, but once connected it read 10.2V. It had been sitting for about 6 months prior as well and I had, had the same issue with it as well, so I'm not completely surprised by that.
    - I've left it in there for now and will see how it charges up and if that sheds any more light.

    As for the battery alarmman, it was from a security firm, so should be OK, but you never know and may be a cheapy and causing the problem, but when I Google the code, it's this one here;


    Hopefully some of the new details help to zero in on the issue and thanks heaps for all the help so far

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    Quote Originally Posted by TechTronic View Post
    Thanks guys, your explanations on how and when it uses the battery makes more sense and is what I thought prior to reading a few other posts I came across in my searches.

    shadow1987, that's a handy tip about testing it at full load. I haven't ever tried that and will have a chat to my neighbours first to let them know to expect it as well. I did leave the cover off for about a week at one stage so I could test it once I saw the fault on the keypad, but like all those intermittent faults, of course it decided to work fine for that entire period! It's currently got the fault showing, so I was able to take the cover off and inspect it while it's in this state.

    - No corrosion on terminals
    - I ran a multimeter across the battery and it showed as 6.6V.
    - There was no charge light on (assuming the charge light you're referring to is between the battery and 12VAC fuses.)
    - I removed the battery altogether and measured across the charging leads and got 13.82
    - Connect the previous battery that I kept from last time, which was first installed about a year ago and the charging light came on quite brightly. I didn't think of measuring this previous battery before connecting it up again, but once connected it read 10.2V. It had been sitting for about 6 months prior as well and I had, had the same issue with it as well, so I'm not completely surprised by that.
    - I've left it in there for now and will see how it charges up and if that sheds any more light.

    As for the battery alarmman, it was from a security firm, so should be OK, but you never know and may be a cheapy and causing the problem, but when I Google the code, it's this one here;


    Hopefully some of the new details help to zero in on the issue and thanks heaps for all the help so far
    That does not sound quite right. I would check the current going into the battery when it's charging! Some say that the sirens work off the battery and the rest off the psu. I tend to disagree because the whole alarm must run off the psu (incase the battery is flat) and then off the battery (for when your power goes out).

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    Quote Originally Posted by shadow1987 View Post
    Some say that the sirens work off the battery and the rest off the psu. I tend to disagree because the whole alarm must run off the psu (incase the battery is flat) and then off the battery (for when your power goes out).
    The battery does in fact run the sirens, since the COM+ terminal that supplies the positive to the sirens/screamers (if the wiring diagram is followed) is connected internally directly to the battery positive, whereas the +12V terminal for PIRs etc is via the boards's PSU. You will find that if you try to run say 2 horn speakers and 2 screamers with only the AC plugpack connected and the battery disconnected, the board won't handle it.

    @TechTronic: Check the continuity of the charging globe with a multimeter. If OK, my advice is to replace the PCB. As I mentioned in an earlier post, I had the exact same problems you describe on a job recently, and a new board fixed everything. The battery was charged properly by the replacement board and the FAULT went away.

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    Quote Originally Posted by alarmman View Post
    The battery does in fact run the sirens, since the COM+ terminal that supplies the positive to the sirens/screamers (if the wiring diagram is followed) is connected internally directly to the battery positive, whereas the +12V terminal for PIRs etc is via the boards's PSU. You will find that if you try to run say 2 horn speakers and 2 screamers with only the AC plugpack connected and the battery disconnected, the board won't handle it.

    @TechTronic: Check the continuity of the charging globe with a multimeter. If OK, my advice is to replace the PCB. As I mentioned in an earlier post, I had the exact same problems you describe on a job recently, and a new board fixed everything. The battery was charged properly by the replacement board and the FAULT went away.
    I must be missing something as I can seem to run these panels, siren and all without a battery. Techtronic, I think I stand corrected.

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    That's the best thing about these forums shadow1987, everyone knows different things, but between all, it fills the gaps and we can all learn

    Looks like it's time to get another multimeter so I can check that current too. My old one died a few months ago, so I've been resorting to using another old auto one... it's handy for some of the common tests, but amazingly lacks testing of current.. can't believe they even bother making such a thing, but at least it gives me an excuse to upgrade!

    And alarmman, I suspect you're right. I still haven't been able to rule out the power adapter either though. As far as I can tell, nothing should be draining the battery significantly in general use and yet it does run down, when tested over a 24 hour period and times when it hasn't even been armed. If the transformer was faulty, I could imagine it causing that too. Unfortunately, I can also imagine the board doing that too though!

    Given that I can't rule out the transformer and more importantly, this could be the first panel that I've installed and it's a much more involved process, do you guys reckon it's worth buying the transformer first? They aren't particularly expensive from what I've seen online and otherwise, do you have any reliable ways of testing it?

    Thanks!

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    The transformer should put out about 20Vac unloaded. The SLA batteries dont like being deeply discharged. You can get away with it if the battery is fairly new but if its a couple of years old they will not recharge to optimum. An easy preliminary check for all things power is - * Is the panel alive on just the transformer * Is the panel alive on just the battery * Trigger the sirens/strobe then see if the charge globe indicates a charge (glows bright) when the sirens are reset

    @ shadow the battery is there as a backup to the transformer NOT the transformer is there as a backup to the battery

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    Quote Originally Posted by watchdog View Post
    The transformer should put out about 20Vac unloaded. The SLA batteries dont like being deeply discharged. You can get away with it if the battery is fairly new but if its a couple of years old they will not recharge to optimum. An easy preliminary check for all things power is - * Is the panel alive on just the transformer * Is the panel alive on just the battery * Trigger the sirens/strobe then see if the charge globe indicates a charge (glows bright) when the sirens are reset

    @ shadow the battery is there as a backup to the transformer NOT the transformer is there as a backup to the battery
    Lol I know this! But as you are all saying, sirens run off the battery! I'm a little confused by this and would welcome someone to explain how that works when I can run everything off the psu (battery fault on kp of course), sirens and all!

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    Could it be the current required for the Sirens is greater than that available from the Transformer or the circuit is designed to only power the Sirens from the Battery?
    I had a devise that would only charge on the supplied Plug Pack but when I used another of the same voltage but double the current, I could both charge and record or playback without any problems.
    I stand unequivicably behind everything I say , I just dont ever remember saying it !!

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    You are talking about a Bosch 880 shadow

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    Thanks guys, I was concerned about wiping the settings by disconnecting the power, however according to a manual I was reading (ICP-CC408) the settings are stored in Non Volatile memory, for up to 10 years without power.
    Is there any risk for my 880, or does the same retention apply? I can't find a CC number on mine.. it's one of the old ones from what I've read, marked as "EDM347K.PCB - Rev K 4/03".
    I'll probably give Bosch a call to confirm exactly what board this is, unless anyone is familiar with that code.

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    The old solution panels would not turn on sirens if the battery was low saving the power for dialler communications.

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    Quote Originally Posted by watchdog View Post
    The transformer should put out about 20Vac unloaded. The SLA batteries dont like being deeply discharged. You can get away with it if the battery is fairly new but if its a couple of years old they will not recharge to optimum. An easy preliminary check for all things power is - * Is the panel alive on just the transformer * Is the panel alive on just the battery * Trigger the sirens/strobe then see if the charge globe indicates a charge (glows bright) when the sirens are reset

    @ shadow the battery is there as a backup to the transformer NOT the transformer is there as a backup to the battery
    Hi watchdog,

    I just tried a few of the tests that you recommended and the results are as you stated earlier, siren only works with battery connected;

    • Removed the cover, sirens went off
    • Disconnected the battery and it measured 12.17V
    • Charge Leads 13.85V
    • With battery disconnected - PIR and Piezo/bell Yes - Siren No
    • Battery reconnected - PIR, Piezo/Bell, Siren YES
    • Measured the voltage across battery 12.22V
    • Activated the Siren & Strobe and checked the charge light and it was OFF
    • Disconnected the battery (as this seems to get the charge light to come on), battery 11.97V
    • Reconnected battery lead, charge light on, although only faint, battery 12.1V and climbing.

    For whatever reason I have noticed a number of times, that if the charge light is off, it always comes on again when the battery is disconnected and then connected again.

    Also, no guarantees that it's 100%, but I just checked the manual from the installer and as long as they gave me the right one, it says Solution 880 - CC408.

    Any more ideas based on these results?

    Thanks
    Last edited by TechTronic; 19-10-15 at 10:02 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TechTronic View Post
    Thanks guys, your explanations on how and when it uses the battery makes more sense and is what I thought prior to reading a few other posts I came across in my searches.

    shadow1987, that's a handy tip about testing it at full load. I haven't ever tried that and will have a chat to my neighbours first to let them know to expect it as well. I did leave the cover off for about a week at one stage so I could test it once I saw the fault on the keypad, but like all those intermittent faults, of course it decided to work fine for that entire period! It's currently got the fault showing, so I was able to take the cover off and inspect it while it's in this state.

    - No corrosion on terminals
    - I ran a multimeter across the battery and it showed as 6.6V.
    - There was no charge light on (assuming the charge light you're referring to is between the battery and 12VAC fuses.)
    - I removed the battery altogether and measured across the charging leads and got 13.82
    - Connect the previous battery that I kept from last time, which was first installed about a year ago and the charging light came on quite brightly. I didn't think of measuring this previous battery before connecting it up again, but once connected it read 10.2V. It had been sitting for about 6 months prior as well and I had, had the same issue with it as well, so I'm not completely surprised by that.
    - I've left it in there for now and will see how it charges up and if that sheds any more light.

    As for the battery alarmman, it was from a security firm, so should be OK, but you never know and may be a cheapy and causing the problem, but when I Google the code, it's this one here;


    Hopefully some of the new details help to zero in on the issue and thanks heaps for all the help so far
    6.6v ?

    That is insanely low, this battery is going straight in the scrap heap kind of low.

    Quote Originally Posted by TechTronic View Post
    And alarmman, I suspect you're right. I still haven't been able to rule out the power adapter either though. As far as I can tell, nothing should be draining the battery significantly in general use and yet it does run down, when tested over a 24 hour period and times when it hasn't even been armed. If the transformer was faulty, I could imagine it causing that too. Unfortunately, I can also imagine the board doing that too though!

    Given that I can't rule out the transformer and more importantly, this could be the first panel that I've installed and it's a much more involved process, do you guys reckon it's worth buying the transformer first? They aren't particularly expensive from what I've seen online and otherwise, do you have any reliable ways of testing it?

    Thanks!
    To be honest, AC transformers are typically pretty rock solid compared to DC supplies. Nothing really to go wrong with them, I mean yes they can fail but it's rare and far more likely for DC power supplies especially switch mode to give you trouble.

    Far more likely to be on the power supply section of the circuit board where the AC is rectified and regulated, plus it must have some sort of battery charge and monitoring circuit. All potential points of failure.

    Battery faults can also damage panels. Had a battery with a dead short I called "DGP Killer", absolutely toasted and destroyed the DGP board around a 5W resistor you could've cooked food on if only it was bigger.

    Had a Protege panel that survived such a battery but it dragged down the voltage of it's onboard power supply and that of another board on the same transformer.


    Quote Originally Posted by alarmman View Post
    The battery does in fact run the sirens, since the COM+ terminal that supplies the positive to the sirens/screamers (if the wiring diagram is followed) is connected internally directly to the battery positive, whereas the +12V terminal for PIRs etc is via the boards's PSU. You will find that if you try to run say 2 horn speakers and 2 screamers with only the AC plugpack connected and the battery disconnected, the board won't handle it.

    @TechTronic: Check the continuity of the charging globe with a multimeter. If OK, my advice is to replace the PCB. As I mentioned in an earlier post, I had the exact same problems you describe on a job recently, and a new board fixed everything. The battery was charged properly by the replacement board and the FAULT went away.
    That seems like a really piss poor design choice. Let's power stuff off the backup source of power that is more likely to fail and has a limited life. Genius.

    A keysafe system I worked on before was similar.

    The power supply couldn't fire all of the solenoids, it actually relied on using the battery. Which can put out reasonable amounts of current in the short time frames involved. The solenoids would fire only every so often for short periods so the power supply trickle charge the battery back up. Trying to use it without a battery or a faulty battery would cause it to crash and reboot.

    What a brilliant idea, cutting corners and saving money. Instead of having 2 possible power sources and redundancy, it now relies on the battery. The Bosch is not quite so bad as this but it is still pretty poor.

    The issue is the wheels fall off that when a system is not maintained or the unlucky happens and a battery fails, everything goes to shit. Instead of just using a power supply that is capable of supplying more current in the first place.

    Quote Originally Posted by TechTronic View Post
    Hi watchdog,

    I just tried a few of the tests that you recommended and the results are as you stated earlier, siren only works with battery connected;

    • Removed the cover, sirens went off
    • Disconnected the battery and it measured 12.17V
    • Charge Leads 13.85V
    • With battery disconnected - PIR and Piezo/bell Yes - Siren No
    • Battery reconnected - PIR, Piezo/Bell, Siren YES
    • Measured the voltage across battery 12.22V
    • Activated the Siren & Strobe and checked the charge light and it was OFF
    • Disconnected the battery (as this seems to get the charge light to come on), battery 11.97V
    • Reconnected battery lead, charge light on, although only faint, battery 12.1V and climbing.

    For whatever reason I have noticed a number of times, that if the charge light is off, it always comes on again when the battery is disconnected and then connected again.

    Also, no guarantees that it's 100%, but I just checked the manual from the installer and as long as they gave me the right one, it says Solution 880 - CC408.

    Any more ideas based on these results?

    Thanks

    Seems low straight off. Also shouldn't dip that much from light use.

    'Fresh' battery from the box, new but uninstalled, no idea on time spent on shelf. Just checked with a DMM. 12.8-12.9VDC.

    This matches with a manufacturer chart to 2.15v per cell for 90% charge.

    Your battery on the same graph at 11.97V is 1.9V per cell for 20%. Your highest at 12.22V is about 35%.

    Now the graph isn't perfect just a general guide of open circuit plotted against charge capacity, but any way you slice it the voltage you are measuring is low, too low initially.

    It also shouldn't drop so much.

    13.5VDC+ is about right for a float charge in terms of voltage. Need to know though if it is charging when it should be and what current, which might be a bit of a pain.
    Last edited by dmaher; 23-10-15 at 08:06 PM.

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    Thanks for all the great advice guys, it's been really helpful and I've learned quite a bit from it too!

    So from all investigations so far and your input, I agree, it does point most likely to the panel.
    Given that my alarm has some pretty bad design flaws in my opinion, I'd rather replace it with something more current and/or a better model.
    I've been happy enough with Bosch (apart from it failing!) and all the PIR's and other bits and pieces, so ideally I would like something that's compatible with the existing hardware. I have a feeling the keypads might not be, but we'll see. In saying that, they are very basic and only show numeric errors so it might not be a bad thing!

    Seems to be either the 3000's or 6000's these days, at least in the Bosch range from what I gather, but I'm sure there's others to consider.

    What would you recommend as a good replacement replacement panel?

    Any advice would be appreciated

    Thanks

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    I Have a customer with a Bosch solution Ultima 880 security system.
    It appears that during a battery replacement the customer has inadvertently swapped the battery terminal connections and has damaged the component on the board labelled P1.
    This is I beleive a resistor in the charging circuit that requires replacing. The Diodes and other components are testing ok.
    Can anyone assist with the correct value of this component please? it seem a shame to have to replace the entire PCB for one obviously damaged component.
    Any advice appreciated.
    PCB details EDM347K Rev K
    Cheers
    Graeme

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    P1 is a light globe that acts to regulate and/or limit the current going into the battery. It glows brightly when the battery is flat, and dimly or no glow when the battery is fully charged. I've seen them go open-circuit and sometimes burn the PCB if the owner ignores the "low battery" message on the keypad for too long.

    Good luck sourcing one - IMO the only place you'll find one is on another Bosch Solution 4xx, 8xx or 16 board.

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