Criminal justice - victim blaming

**bazzy** · 02-12-21, 03:46 PM

Hay i have had the misfortune of coming across a charming personality ex convict online,

he openly admits to committing fraud through an online auction site and in other conversations he behaves real gangster and blames his victims for his incarceration.

he has apparently been in and out of jail about 2 or 3 times.

This made me think. the purpose of jail is not only to enact punishment but to rehabilitate criminals.
if a criminal has been released and blames his / her victims for being in jail that means he / she has not been rehabilitated.

it is my understanding that the offender courses that have to be undergone in prison requires the offender to acknowledge and accept that their actions resulted in the incarceration not the victims for reporting it.

if a criminal doesn't see their actions resulted in jail time and blames the victim that means not only is the victim in danger the criminal is still a threat to society

the fact this person has been in jail more than once for similar offences shows they are not yet suited for integration into society and should be held until such time they are suitable for reintegration even if that is longer than their jail term.

that is just my opinion but i thought i would put that up for discussion.

**mtv** · 02-12-21, 03:52 PM

Wow... a criminal who has no remorse and is proud of their actions... who would have thought.

**bob_m_54** · 02-12-21, 05:15 PM

Yeah it's always everybody else's fault. Geez I've been dealing with one of those types for years...

**enf** · 02-12-21, 05:46 PM

At the risk of offending the lefties here, their governments seem to forever pander to their concocted excuses.

So why would anyone be surprised?

**Uncle Fester** · 02-12-21, 05:59 PM

Originally Posted by bazzy

if a criminal doesn't see their actions resulted in jail time and blames the victim that means not only is the victim in danger the criminal is still a threat to society

That could be quite often the case.
1 - A criminal eventually gets used to jail, so the threshold could become lower when to commit a crime again.
2 - A criminal might be thinking and scheming all the time in jail how to pay it back to the victim once they get out.
3 - If they end up in jail again, see 1.
4 - The motivation to behave well in so called rehabilitation training is given in 2.

Many only re offend because once they leave jail, they have no where else to go.
With the current rental crisis would you accept a freshly released criminal as a tenant for your rental?

**madtech** · 02-12-21, 06:48 PM

We need serious reform of the criminal system. We need better sentencing & more deterrent
For first offence only there should be a guideline sentence of minimum of 50% of maximum. No possibility of release until all rehab courses etc have been successfully completed.
For subsequent offences the only possible sentence is the maximum before release can be considered. Misbehaviour in jail will increase the sentence. No concurrent sentencing, only consecutive. All first time offenders to spend part of their sentence as per second offence (see below) conditions.

Also the jail system needs to be split. For first offenders only similar to now, but more emphasis on rehabilitation etc

For second & subsequent offenders prison to consist of an cubical cell, 2400mm per side. Once convicted they do not leave the cell. The only medical care available is pain relief. If there is a meeting with the lawyer then the lawyer gets to sit on a plastic chair in the hallway outside of the cell. Food extremely basic & cheap. No lifestyle choice (eg vegan, kosher, halal etc) meals available. No cigarettes etc available. Zero physical contact available between prisoner & anyone else.

Any person who is not a 'natural born' Australian who is convicted of any crime with a possible sentence of 1 year or more to mandatorily be deported upon completion of their sentence.

**allover** · 02-12-21, 07:09 PM

My opinion, the dude needs psychological assessment and help, obviously did not get that in prison thus far so further incarceration ain't going to help him or change him

**Uncle Fester** · 02-12-21, 07:28 PM

Originally Posted by madtech

We need serious reform of the criminal system. . ....Once convicted they do not leave the cell.
....Zero physical contact available between prisoner & anyone else.

Always inside the comfort of their cell?
Strongly disagree.
The scariest part of being in jail are all the other criminals just waiting to let out all their anger.
If I remember correctly it costs tax payer about $250 to keep one inmate per day.
I suggest they should all work, and work hard for that stay.
10 hours per day, 7 days a week at minimum wage should cover it.
After that they will just be too tired to be scheming what they will do with their victims.
And when they are released their work experience will secure them a good starting point for a new honest life.

**porkop** · 02-12-21, 10:36 PM

shoot them all, let god sort it out!

**lsemmens** · 02-12-21, 11:18 PM

Porkop, has a good idea, however, I am against capital punishment, so I would not support it. To me, the idea of transportation i.e. how Aust was first settled, has some advantages. Our problem, now, is that there is no more suitable "new world" to settle. In the absence of that, the punishment should fit the crime. If you steal, ALL of you worldly possessions become property of the crown. If you commit murder, your life should be spent in a cell. Rape - have your body parts (you know the bits) chopped off. Kiddy FIddling - locked up with the rest of the prison populace with a huge sign around you neck - you get the idea.

All of the above must be mitigated against the fact that there are those who do TRULY repent of their crimes and go on to become good citizens. As a Christian, I am willing to forgive, however, the old adage "fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me" springs to mind here.

**VroomVroom** · 03-12-21, 07:46 AM

I agree the system is broken , but it starts way before the fleabags even get to jail. Our pathetic court system keeps letting offenders off the hook so by the time thier behaviour escalates ( and it always does ) then wiping them off the face of the earth is the only answer.

here in QLD there is a bloke in my street who has had at least 5 DVOs taken out against him by his ex. On the fourth , the cops took him away for breaching the third. So anyway this time he goes to jail for 4 weeks. Last Wednesday he gets out and he parks outside her house again , yelling abuse , hitting the house with a pole then takes off before the police arrive. This cycle should have been stopped by a bullet before it got to the third DVO. FFS

**madtech** · 03-12-21, 10:57 AM

Originally Posted by Uncle Fester

Always inside the comfort of their cell?
Strongly disagree.
The scariest part of being in jail are all the other criminals just waiting to let out all their anger.
If I remember correctly it costs tax payer about $250 to keep one inmate per day.
I suggest they should all work, and work hard for that stay.
10 hours per day, 7 days a week at minimum wage should cover it.
After that they will just be too tired to be scheming what they will do with their victims.
And when they are released their work experience will secure them a good starting point for a new honest life.

Who said anything about comfort in the cell? I am thinking in terms of a literal hole in the floor for bodily waste as the only blemish to the 2.4m cube. They sit on the floor, they sleep on the floor etc

This would also reduce the cost for the taxpayer... less guards required as functionality zero prisoner movement. Less cost for food, less cost for medical etc. Also the prison itself could be built relatively cheaply as no need for medical facilities, secure movement areas, exercise yards, visitor rooms, internet access, secure intercom etc to the cells.

**madtech** · 03-12-21, 11:05 AM

Originally Posted by VroomVroom

I agree the system is broken , but it starts way before the fleabags even get to jail. Our pathetic court system keeps letting offenders off the hook so by the time thier behaviour escalates ( and it always does ) then wiping them off the face of the earth is the only answer.

here in QLD there is a bloke in my street who has had at least 5 DVOs taken out against him by his ex. On the fourth , the cops took him away for breaching the third. So anyway this time he goes to jail for 4 weeks. Last Wednesday he gets out and he parks outside her house again , yelling abuse , hitting the house with a pole then takes off before the police arrive. This cycle should have been stopped by a bullet before it got to the third DVO. FFS

Under my suggested system upon first breach 1.5years in jail minimum (max penalty in Qld for DVO breach is 3 years first offence, 5 years second offence) so he would not have been out to be able to commit second & subsequent offences. If he had offended for the second time, before being picked up for 1st offence then he would be in for 6.5 years, remember no concurrent sentencing allowed. Further if he was not a natural born Australian then automatically deported at the end of his sentence, be it 1.5 or 6.5 years

**wotnot** · 03-12-21, 11:13 AM

"How much does it cost to keep someone in jail in Australia 2021?
The annual total net cost of imprisonment was estimated to be $61,179 per prisoner, or $391.18 per prisoner per day. This is around 20 percent higher than the direct sentence costs of prison alone."

Now....lemme see here....I'm a disability pensioner, so I get $450 per week -- this is justice?

You know what, the govt. could probably buy me an EV if they didn't have to pay that much for incarceration....then I could help 'save the planet' ...but nah, they want to spend this much saving prisoners, many of whom will never be repatriated into society.

If you really want to twist your brain, go search for the costs involved with lethal injection.

IMHO, yet another example of boundless human stupidity, especially for 'lifers' (those serving sentences for the rest of their life without parole)

**bazzy** · 03-12-21, 01:12 PM

Originally Posted by wotnot

"How much does it cost to keep someone in jail in Australia 2021?
[I]The annual total net cost of imprisonment was estimated to be $61,179 per prisoner, or $391.18 per prisoner per day. This is around 20 percent higher than the direct sentence costs of prison alone."

I feel the solution to this is to force them to work while they are in there without pay. when in jail they can become property of the state and be forced to work constructing products that can be sold on the open market by corrective services to recover the cost of their incarceration.

for lifers they could repay their dept to society by using them for more risky medical trials, that way they are contributing to society even if not by choice.

**wotnot** · 03-12-21, 03:12 PM

I feel the solution to this is to force them to work while they are in there without pay. when in jail they can become property of the state and be forced to work constructing products that can be sold on the open market by corrective services to recover the cost of their incarceration.

They are already expected to work during their incarceration, last I heard they got paid between 60cents and $2 per hour ~ it gets paid into their 'buy up' account so they can purchase 'privilege' items to ease the displeasure of their incarceration. Remember, if the cost is around $390/per day/per prisoner, you gotta wonder what sort of work they would need to do, to make any significant inroads towards recovering that daily cost. How hard would any of us have to work, as individuals, to legitimately earn $390/day?

Palen Creek boo is just down the road from here - I've worked alongside inmates on daily release, doing 'general hand' work around the local council showgrounds for example. There's a perceived saving of money (to the larger community), in the form of these blokes doing the same amount of (grounds-keeping) work, 'for free', as a gang of council workers could do for whatever cost in wages etc that would entail....(or else the cost of getting a commercial crew in to do the same amount of work) ; you're already $390/per inmate just having the guys there in the first place (gang of 6 blokes + 2 COs to shepherd), so that's $40/hr or so for each CO for 8 hours...plus the showgrounds have to provide the equipment. I give you the drum - the Palen Creek denizens get more 'personal reward' from just being out for a day, and looking forward to the bbq lunch the showgrounds put on for them -- the better you feed them, the greater the gratitude, and the better the work ethic ; they didn't give a damn about how much they were earning...it's an interesting perspective as a tradie working beside/with inmates, and being able to talk to them as 'co-workers' so to speak.

for lifers they could repay their dept to society by using them for more risky medical trials, that way they are contributing to society even if not by choice.

LoL...it's a Clockwork Orange dystopia, and has disturbing medical undertones...ie; first, do no harm. Having been part of a drug trial that was so 'risky' it concluded with a phonecall mid protocol with my specialist saying "stop, now -- the treatment's going to kill you before it kills the virus", I can tell you the vetting process you have to go through medically is very strict ..and then, one has to be afflicted with whatever it is the trail is aimed at to begin with =) The stigma of using involuntary human patients as test guinea pigs is greater than the perceived gains of doing that in the 'perhaps' benefit of medical science, given there are other ways to achieve those ends...something like that, but in the real world, any drugs trials have gone through enough testing, to ensure the drug is suitable for human trials, and the risks are low from the get go.

**madtech** · 03-12-21, 03:43 PM

Originally Posted by bazzy

I feel the solution to this is to force them to work while they are in there without pay. when in jail they can become property of the state and be forced to work constructing products that can be sold on the open market by corrective services to recover the cost of their incarceration.
.

This will actually cost the taxpayer more due to the requirements of supervision, transport, tools & equipment etc.

The only real cost saving to be had is to simplify the whole prison experience, never leave cell, only most basic of food etc

**Jma** · 03-12-21, 05:01 PM

Originally Posted by madtech

Who said anything about comfort in the cell? I am thinking in terms of a literal hole in the floor for bodily waste as the only blemish to the 2.4m cube. They sit on the floor, they sleep on the floor etc

This would also reduce the cost for the taxpayer... less guards required as functionality zero prisoner movement. Less cost for food, less cost for medical etc. Also the prison itself could be built relatively cheaply as no need for medical facilities, secure movement areas, exercise yards, visitor rooms, internet access, secure intercom etc to the cells.

I wonder if your tune would change if you were wrongly accused of something and ended up in there?

**mtv** · 03-12-21, 05:49 PM

Originally Posted by Jma

I wonder if your tune would change if you were wrongly accused of something and ended up in there?

Sadly, prisons are full of innocent people (mostly men) falsely accused of sex crimes often by a jilted ex partner out for revenge.

The justice 'system' (cough) has decided their fate even before any appearance in court.

**Jma** · 03-12-21, 06:24 PM

Originally Posted by mtv

Sadly, prisons are full of innocent people (mostly men) falsely accused of sex crimes often by a jilted ex partner out for revenge.

The justice 'system' (cough) has decided their fate even before any appearance in court.

Yes I've seen that happen to a couple of men I've known for many decades, I do not believe they would ever harm the those who accused them, they practically idolised them.
Unfortunately it's not only ex partners either, spoilt kids can do the same for something as trivial as not getting their own way, seen that one happen also, when it comes down to their word against the man's, nearly every time the man is found guilty regardless whether they are or not.